At least also tell him what you look at in the UOA to see how the oil is holding up.
Would any porsche A40 cut it? high reving engine used on track days (2zz-ge)
- Thread starter ivanb28
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1. I did sessions as long as 1 1/2hrs, meaning constant time on the track. This track (High Plains Raceway) is very technical and not so fast. So that session is maybe 40-42 laps with no cooling or break period.
2. These oils are not cheap. Street oils are very, very tough. They have to do much more than racing oil. They have to clean engines and prevent deposits all along while they are doing short trips, maybe not warmed up to operating temperature, etc. As for temperature, your daily driving is always around 110-130c. My VW Atlas will reach 265f or 129c in normal drive going up the Rocky Mountains. HTHS is looked at as the most important thing, but there is much more to protection, additives, base stock, etc. If you think 135c is high, that is your oil temperature in the sump or in the oil filter housing. Think about the temperature around piston rings, bearings, etc.
3. Why Porsche A40 and MB229.5? European approvals are the toughest standards. MB 229.5 (full SAPS) and MB 229.51/52 (Mid/Low SAPS) are generally considered as golden standard as those are most comprehensive approvals. BMW LL approvals are very tough oxidation-wise and timing chain test-wise, but MB has tough standards across the board. Noack is at max 10%, and those particular standards require a minimum HTHS of 3.5cP regardless of grade (that is, in general, ACEA C3,C3). Porsche A40 on other hand is not a particularly tough standard, BUT, it has a specific track test where oil is subjugated to oil sump test simulating 8X1hrs (if I remember correctly) on Nordschleife:
So, going Mobil1 0W40 (Porsche usese Mobil1 0W40 in team racing) is ALWAYS SAFE bet. Mobil1 0W40 is actually Mobil1 entry track/racing oil. It is also safe to use Shell Helix Ultra, Motul X-Cess GEN2 5W40 (HTHS is 3.8 not 3.7, that is old x-Cess), Castrol 0W40 etc. Anything approved for Porsche A40 and MB229.5.
Now, there are some oils that are bit boutique. That Repsol I mentioned is one of them. Ravenol is another oil option you can look at. ROWE has racing oils too. But, you mentioned cost is a factor. In that case I would go Mobil1 0W40, Shell Helix Ultra 5W40, Motul X-Cess GEN2 5W40 or Castrol Edge 0W40. I would do used oil analysis (UOA). You can post it here, and we can look at the shearing of that oil after several track days.
Okay, first of all, thanks for all the information @edyvw !
By cheap oils I meant that they can be purchased for under 40€ (5 liter can), which, compared to racing oils like 300v or redline is pretty cheap.
I’m planing on doing an UOA to my current oil to see how’s everything going inside there. I know a guy who sends samples to Poland so it’s not expensive. Will post the results when I get them, but will take a while.
Btw, where would you measure oil temp to see 110 to 130c on daily driving? From what I’ve heard from people with my car, on regular use the oil temps are around 90-100c, measured at sump or oil filter sandwich.
Maybe it’s a bmw n52/54 thing to run that hot?
Good to know these European norms are a proven reference point, makes oil choice easier tbh.
Now I have another question that comes to my mind. What’s the general consensus on the use of VII for oils used in racing? Wouldn’t a 0w40 be a worse option compared to a 5/10w40? I’ve been told that VII doesn’t work as good in “extreme conditions” (there’a a proper word for this, but I don’t know it in English).
A part of me just wants a thicker oil (while staying in w40 grade), but idk if I really need that. I do have some oil consumption though, but I’m not sure if it’s acceptable considering the use. (0.5l or so in a 1200km trip at constant 4500rpm + 4h open pit lane track day).
By cheap oils I meant that they can be purchased for under 40€ (5 liter can), which, compared to racing oils like 300v or redline is pretty cheap.
I’m planing on doing an UOA to my current oil to see how’s everything going inside there. I know a guy who sends samples to Poland so it’s not expensive. Will post the results when I get them, but will take a while.
Btw, where would you measure oil temp to see 110 to 130c on daily driving? From what I’ve heard from people with my car, on regular use the oil temps are around 90-100c, measured at sump or oil filter sandwich.
Maybe it’s a bmw n52/54 thing to run that hot?
Good to know these European norms are a proven reference point, makes oil choice easier tbh.
Now I have another question that comes to my mind. What’s the general consensus on the use of VII for oils used in racing? Wouldn’t a 0w40 be a worse option compared to a 5/10w40? I’ve been told that VII doesn’t work as good in “extreme conditions” (there’a a proper word for this, but I don’t know it in English).
A part of me just wants a thicker oil (while staying in w40 grade), but idk if I really need that. I do have some oil consumption though, but I’m not sure if it’s acceptable considering the use. (0.5l or so in a 1200km trip at constant 4500rpm + 4h open pit lane track day).
For the most part all oils except a monograde have VII and not all oils use the same quality VII. An oil such as a typical Euro 0W-40 will not be a problem. Also know that the winter rating is dependent on the base stock composition and not just VM. For any given 40-grade, one with a 0W rating may have less VM than one with a 5W rating depending on the base stock.
That’s why it’s critical to go by the approval which is actual testing of the oil properties, rather than generalized stuff posted to the Internet. If you are using an oil with Porsche A40 approval then do not worry about the 0W winter rating.
,
From my own experience "1200km trip at constant 4500rpm + 4h track"
leads to some oil burn and 0.5 l is manageable. I won't worry about it.
Porsche A40, MB 229.5, maybe BMW LL-01 or VW 502 00 like M1 0W-40.
Just listen to kschachn and edyvw.
From my own experience "1200km trip at constant 4500rpm + 4h track"
leads to some oil burn and 0.5 l is manageable. I won't worry about it.
Porsche A40, MB 229.5, maybe BMW LL-01 or VW 502 00 like M1 0W-40.
Just listen to kschachn and edyvw.
1. Atlas has an oil temperature reading from the factory. All VW's, at least here is the US, in the last 10yrs have one. My BMW has one too (BMW's that don;t come with oil temperature gauge still have all necessary sensors and software, you just need to basically switch reading from consumption to oil temperature using BMW INPA software). I had Toyota minivan that also could read oil temperature via OBD. That engine was very "cold" engine. Took long time to warm up, was losing heat super fast, but oil temperature in regular driving was always 118-125c. Your engine is fairly old. Newer engines are much hotter in order to improve fuel consumption. Take into consideration that that Toyota was recommended using 0W20 oil. The current VW Atlas with 4th gen EA888 engine (2.0T) is also using 0W20 oil (I personally would not, but that is what they recommend). So, oils can easily sustain those temperatures. Actually, for the last 20 years, BMW's utilize electric water pump to keep coolant temperature as high as possible while cruising. So, for example, my BMW runs around 113-115c coolant temperature on the highway, while on track, it drops to 74-85c.
2. As for VII, yes you are correct, 0W40 is less stable than 10W40, but that only applies if all things are equal or similar would be more accurate word. So Motul 300V? Yes, 10W40 would be better on track than 0W40. But you are talking about two oils made of similar additives, super-quality base stocks. They are in a same quality group, for lack of a better word. Mobil1 does not have a 10W40 equivalent of 0W40, to say it this way. So ANY 10W40 is not necessarily more shear stable than Mobil1 0W40.
3. That consumption is absolutely, by all means, irrelevant! That could be simply the higher Noack of oil you are currently using. I know people with really good engines who burn more during half-day track sessions.
Thanks @edyvw @kschachn and @930.engineering for all these answers.
Brings peace of mind knowing that I shouldn’t worry about the oil consumption in this case (already thought so but it’s always good to have some backup
)
It’s also good to know that oils can operate on sustained temps of 120c for long times, guess track days aren’t that though for them after all, I don’t think I’m seeing temps above 135c but would be nice to check with an oil temp sensor.
About the VII, seems like I shouldn’t worry that much. Makes sense what you say @edyvw about comparing apples to apples (same quality 0w40 vs 10w40) instead of a good 0w40 vs a mediocre 10w40. Do you guys know any proper 10w40 that isn’t expensive like 300v or redline?
Anyways, I’m really tempted on the shell helix ultra 5w40. Found a pretty nice offer that ends today, 5 liter can for 22€. I might get 3 cans for 2 oil changes and each change would be less than 33€ which is perfect hahah
Brings peace of mind knowing that I shouldn’t worry about the oil consumption in this case (already thought so but it’s always good to have some backup
)It’s also good to know that oils can operate on sustained temps of 120c for long times, guess track days aren’t that though for them after all, I don’t think I’m seeing temps above 135c but would be nice to check with an oil temp sensor.
About the VII, seems like I shouldn’t worry that much. Makes sense what you say @edyvw about comparing apples to apples (same quality 0w40 vs 10w40) instead of a good 0w40 vs a mediocre 10w40. Do you guys know any proper 10w40 that isn’t expensive like 300v or redline?
Anyways, I’m really tempted on the shell helix ultra 5w40. Found a pretty nice offer that ends today, 5 liter can for 22€. I might get 3 cans for 2 oil changes and each change would be less than 33€ which is perfect hahah
Absolutely go for it.Thanks @edyvw @kschachn and @930.engineering for all these answers.
Brings peace of mind knowing that I shouldn’t worry about the oil consumption in this case (already thought so but it’s always good to have some backup
It’s also good to know that oils can operate on sustained temps of 120c for long times, guess track days aren’t that though for them after all, I don’t think I’m seeing temps above 135c but would be nice to check with an oil temp sensor.
About the VII, seems like I shouldn’t worry that much. Makes sense what you say @edyvw about comparing apples to apples (same quality 0w40 vs 10w40) instead of a good 0w40 vs a mediocre 10w40. Do you guys know any proper 10w40 that isn’t expensive like 300v or redline?
Anyways, I’m really tempted on the shell helix ultra 5w40. Found a pretty nice offer that ends today, 5 liter can for 22€. I might get 3 cans for 2 oil changes and each change would be less than 33€ which is perfect hahah
It might exist, but personally I don't know any decently priced 10W-40 I'd run.
Maybe that's one of the reasons why I run 5W-30 and 0W-40 (both M1 ESP)
on my two dailies.
Well, I run Ravenol RCS in my Porsche engine, but it's definitely not cheap:
RAVENOL RCS Racing Competition Synto SAE 5W-40
RAVENOL RCS Racing Competition Synto SAE 5W-40 is a modern, PAO (poly-alpha-olefin) based full synthetic multi-range engine oil with USVO® Technology. Due...
www.ravenol.de
HTHS 4.26 mPas, Noack 5.7 %, flashpoint of 246°C (475°F) . . . .
(its low-SAPS brother comes with BMW LL-04 and MB 229.51 formerly
carried also Porsche C40 and VW 511 00)
Yes, go for it.
.
Done. 3 cans of shell helix ultra purchased for a very good price.
Looking forward to the UOA of my current oil, then will compare it with shell’s. Will maintain current OCI (2 track days and 4500km maximum).
I tried but I didn’t find anything interesting in 10/15w40. Everything seems to be hdeo, and probably group II basestock…
UAO would tell if my engine needs thicker hths I suppose.
Looking forward to the UOA of my current oil, then will compare it with shell’s. Will maintain current OCI (2 track days and 4500km maximum).
I tried but I didn’t find anything interesting in 10/15w40. Everything seems to be hdeo, and probably group II basestock…
UAO would tell if my engine needs thicker hths I suppose.
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