thin perhaps not as good as i thought

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wow, you (collectively) guys are really (ahem) insane! This isnot politics or religion but seems to be inching towards being treated as such.

Come on, it is only oil; it is not as if somebody is questioning your mother's parentage ...
 
Originally Posted By: Tim H.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
.....Feeling good Louis!
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Looking good, Billy Ray!
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Good catch, you got it!
thumbsup2.gif
Good to see someone has a sense of humor. Good movie, excellent ending.
 
Originally Posted By: Vikas
wow, you (collectively) guys are really (ahem) insane! This isnot politics or religion but seems to be inching towards being treated as such.

Come on, it is only oil; it is not as if somebody is questioning your mother's parentage ...


It's not just oil

It's Liquid Engineering!
 
It's no wonder that there's so much resistance to having a range of oils available, when a simple xW-20 appears to be so problematic in being a thin one, thick one, too thin for whatever application, needing boosting with a 40 etc. etc.

Why isn't an xW-20 simply that, and good enough for an xW-20 application ?
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
It's no wonder that there's so much resistance to having a range of oils available, when a simple xW-20 appears to be so problematic in being a thin one, thick one, too thin for whatever application, needing boosting with a 40 etc. etc.

Why isn't an xW-20 simply that, and good enough for an xW-20 application ?


Shannow:

You are the hallmark of commonsense. !

I honestly am totally confused by this obsession with convincing folks that one oil suits all needs. Weird. I mean did these people have a hand in the CAFE rules?
whistle.gif
 
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: Tim H.
Originally Posted By: sayjac
.....Feeling good Louis!
19.gif



Looking good, Billy Ray!
19.gif


Good catch, you got it!
thumbsup2.gif
Good to see someone has a sense of humor. Good movie, excellent ending.


Not to mention a few choice shots of Jamie Lee Curtis.....

Cold weather time , I'm running M1 0W20 in the Ford 500 and GC 0W30 in the Fusion . I'm curious to see if the 500 uses any oil , the fusion does a bit with 20 weight and seems to do better with 30 .
 
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I made it to page 12 and then lost interest...

Just wanted to say I didn't see anyone mention that sustained highway driving decreases clearances between the piston and cylinder wall. It's pretty easy to notice the improvement in power after driving on the highway for an hour and then exiting and driving around town.

So this guy drives WOT for an hour several times with the thinnest grade oil prescribed and is dumbfounded that blow-by is excessive when the engine has cooled (or even cold??). His rings probably didn't wear down, but lost a lot of their springiness from overheating caused by both increased microscopic metal-to-metal and higher piston temps.

There is a range of thickness prescribed for a reason. Your driving habits require the thickest.

Finally and most important, I didn't find where the OP stated WHEN he tested blow-by. Was it right after cold startup? This is when blow-by is highest on any engine. Have to check it completely warmed up when the pistons have increased in size and the rings are pushing hardest against the walls.
 
I remember reading this thread way back in 2012. It was a very interesting case study. The car manual was confusing as it wrongly said that 0W20 was OK if it was ACEA:A3 certified (mutually exclusive). The OP, believing thinner was better, went out of it's way to find 0W20 oil wrongly labeled ACEA:A3 certified (mutually exclusive), worked the cars to their limits and then some and seemingly damaged engines in 3 brand new cars. Too bad he didn't come back with any meaningful updates.

This just shows how thin oils are not always better and little knowledge without common sense can be dangerous.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
I remember reading this thread way back in 2012. It was a very interesting case study. The car manual was confusing as it wrongly said that 0W20 was OK if it was ACEA:A3 certified (mutually exclusive). The OP, believing thinner was better, went out of it's way to find 0W20 oil wrongly labeled ACEA:A3 certified (mutually exclusive), worked the cars to their limits and then some and seemingly damaged engines in 3 brand new cars. Too bad he didn't come back with any meaningful updates.

This just shows how thin oils are not always better and little knowledge without common sense can be dangerous.



Yep.
Thinner grades are more than adequate when oil temps aren't elevated for a long time or the vehicle gets driven near its limits.
For example a 20 grade is perfect in my moms caliber because she doesn't drive hard. That car would need a grade or 2 thicker if I drove it because I'd elevate the oil temps on a consistent basis with lots of near full throttle.
 
Exactly, this is why Toyota and Subaru (are there any others?) tell you in the car manual that the recommended oil viscosity is not good enough for hard/hot driving. Not a rocket science at all.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Exactly, this is why Toyota and Subaru (are there any others?) tell you in the car manual that the recommended oil viscosity is not good enough for hard/hot driving. Not a rocket science at all.


Sometimes common sense rules, especially in the case of an engine calling for a thicker grade of oil the year before with no changes to the engine. Many car makers went to one size fits all, and that isn't always the case.
 
In my opinion, there should only be one oil 0W-20. If you are getting the oil hotter than 240 deg F then you need an oil cooler, not an outdated thick oil.

Again, a thick oil is a crutch for a problem. Fix the root cause of the problem.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Exactly, this is why Toyota and Subaru (are there any others?) tell you in the car manual that the recommended oil viscosity is not good enough for hard/hot driving. Not a rocket science at all.


Sometimes common sense rules, especially in the case of an engine calling for a thicker grade of oil the year before with no changes to the engine. Many car makers went to one size fits all, and that isn't always the case.


So simple, and yet so hard for some of us.

How can any single grade of oil perform well for all the different engines all over the world? Just the sheer numbers can tell some of us that no single grade is ever going to work everywhere.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
How can any single grade of oil perform well for all the different engines all over the world? Just the sheer numbers can tell some of us that no single grade is ever going to work everywhere.


Yet the manufs are confident enough to stamp the oil weight right on the oil cap.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
How can any single grade of oil perform well for all the different engines all over the world? Just the sheer numbers can tell some of us that no single grade is ever going to work everywhere.


Yet the manufs are confident enough to stamp the oil weight right on the oil cap.



For a weight that will work in the area it is sold. My 3800 says 5W30 but the same engine in Australia says 15w40.

There are thousands of engine designs operated all over the world in different conditions and usage. Just because 0w20 will work fine in my 5.4 Ford does not mean it will in one of my others.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
How can any single grade of oil perform well for all the different engines all over the world? Just the sheer numbers can tell some of us that no single grade is ever going to work everywhere.


Yet the manufs are confident enough to stamp the oil weight right on the oil cap.



Isn't that a CAFE requirement?
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
How can any single grade of oil perform well for all the different engines all over the world? Just the sheer numbers can tell some of us that no single grade is ever going to work everywhere.


Yet the manufs are confident enough to stamp the oil weight right on the oil cap.



Isn't that a CAFE requirement?


Yes. The SAE grade used for the CAFE certification must be suppled as factory fill, be available, specified in the owner's manual and on the oil cap, among other things.

Originally Posted By: EPA
EPA will approve the use of a GF-3 oil in test vehicles if the following conditions are satisfied:
1. Owner’s Manual Language. The manufacturer provides clear and unambiguous instructions in
the Owner’s Manual which identifying GF-3 non-synthetic engine oil of a specific viscosity grade
(e.g., 5W20, 5W30, 10W30) as the engine oil to be used under ambient temperature conditions likely
to be experienced during normal vehicle operation. It is appropriate for a manufacturer to specify the
use of a lower viscosity engine oil in extremely low ambient temperatures where the normally
specified oil may not flow adequately.
2. Labeling the Oil Filler Cap. The manufacturer clearly indicates on the engine oil filler cap, by
label or other permanently attached means, that GF-3 oil of a specific viscosity grade (e.g. GF-3
5W20) is to be used in the engine.
3. Limits on the Sum of 16-hour plus 96-hour Fuel Economy Improvement Factors. The engine oil
to be used in emissions and fuel economy test vehicles must have a combined fuel economy
improvement factor (using the ASTM Sequence VI-B (or its replacement procedure)) which does
not exceed the following limits:

GF-3 5W20 4.2%
GF-3 5W30 3.4%
GF-3 10W30 2.0%

The limits were calculated as the sum of the 16-hour and 96-hour limits plus 0.5 percent. The 0.5
percent was represented by the Alliance as covering about two standard deviations of the distribution
of fuel economy improvement rates measured by the ASTM procedures. EPA is setting these limits
because it is inappropriate for a manufacturer to select a significantly better oil for fuel economy
testing than the typical customer will be using in their vehicles.
4. Factory Fill Oil Requirements. The manufacturer uses GF-3 oil of the same viscosity rating as
factory fill in production vehicles. Furthermore, the fuel economy performance of the oils used as
factory fill must be equivalent or superior to the oils used in emission and fuel economy test vehicles.
5. Oils Available at Dealerships. The manufacturer supplies its dealers with GF-3 oils of the same
viscosity grade as used in the test vehicles or otherwise assures the use of the appropriate viscosity
grade GF-3 engine oil at dealerships. Furthermore, the fuel economy performance of the oils
supplied to dealers must be equivalent or superior to the oils used in emission and fuel economy test
vehicles.

1. Instructions to“Quick Change” Facilities and the Manufacturer’s Dealers to use 5W20 GF-3 Oils.
The manufacturer commits to do the following shortly after the start of the applicable model year:
a. Acquire from oil manufacturers and supply to EPA copies of materials that they supplied
to "quick oil change" facilities pertaining to the use of 5W20 GF-3 engine oil.
b. Provide EPA with copies of materials that the manufacturer sent to its dealers pertaining
to the use of 5W20 GF-3 engine oil in customer vehicles.

2. Follow-up Survey of 5W20 Oil Usage. The manufacturer commits to perform the following
either approximately two years after the use of 5W20 engine oil is approved by EPA, or immediately
prior to applying for 2004 model year certification:
a. Acquire from oil manufacturers and provide to EPA sales data of 5W20 and at least the
two highest-selling oils by viscosity grade (other than 5W20), promotional information
applicable to the use of 5W20 engine oil, and follow up letters of commitment for the
continued promotion of 5W20 engine oil; and
b. Acquire from oil manufacturers and provide to EPA the fuel efficiency data of their 5W20
and the highest-selling oils identified in a. above, relative to the reference oil as specified
in ASTM Sequence VI-B (or its replacement procedure). This information may be collected
and reported to EPA in conjunction with other vehicle manufacturers; and
c. Acquire and provide to EPA data on the retail prices of 5W20 and the highest selling oils
identified in a. above. Prices of non-synthetic, partial synthetic and synthetic oils are to be
included. This information may be collected and reported to EPA in conjunction with other
vehicle manufacturers.
This information will be used by EPA to determine whether approval of the use of 5W20 engine oil
should be extended beyond the 2003 model year.


Ed
 
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