Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
Besides performance, fuel economy, and engine driveability, there is mechanical durability which is the main reason for motor oil in the first place. That is usually the main point also in any thick versus thin debate. 0w-20 will suffice in most cases where it is recommended by the manufacturer. In the case of towing or other severe use scenarios, the user might go with the heavier grades.


+1 ... and that basic statement has been make about a dozen times in this thread. It's a fact that as oil thins down from heat that the film thickness gets smaller and smaller in the engine components until the oil can't prevent metal-to-metal contact anymore. That's why Ford and GM recommends running a xW-50 for track use in their new and modern cars that are normally specified to use xW-20 or xW-30. They know using a thinner oil on the track which can cause oil temps in the 280~300 deg F range can put the engine in danger of damage. xW-20 in normal everyday driving use where oil temps remain at 200~220 deg F work fine, but not so much in extreme use conditions.

 

[bbhero]

Great point Zee0six.

Has to how long will this thread go on??? 35-40 pages at least. I am impressed that it has not been locked down due to people getting mad. I am very glad to see how well everyone has been handling this. Good job guys.

 

[SonofJoe]

My thoughts are that if BITOG had its own court of law, after much discussion of 'Thin Or Thick: The Final Verdict', the BITOG jury would return a verdict of 'case not proven'.

In his summing up, I rather think that the judge might rebuke The Plaintiff for even bringing said case to court in the first place. Assertion in itself is not argument. Repeating said assertion over and over does not make it fact. Failure to acknowledge or debate alternative reasons for The Plaintiff's observed data, seriously weakened his case. Failure to acknowledge that The Plaintiff's favoured oil might have serious inherent weaknesses undermined his technical credibility. Also, stating as fact, things that The Plaintiff could under no circumstances have any definitive knowledge of, pointed to a weakness of character that bordered on the delusional.

So there you have it. Onto the next thread...

 

[CharlieBauer]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Assertion in itself is not argument. Repeating said assertion over and over does not make it fact.

....

Also, stating as fact, things that The Plaintiff could under no circumstances have any definitive knowledge of, pointed to a weakness of character that bordered on the delusional.


Don't worry, the UK will catch up to US eventually.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: bbhero
Great point Zee0six.

Has to how long will this thread go on??? 35-40 pages at least. I am impressed that it has not been locked down due to people getting mad. I am very glad to see how well everyone has been handling this. Good job guys.


I agree.

 

[Kuato]

Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Assertion in itself is not argument. Repeating said assertion over and over does not make it fact.

....

Also, stating as fact, things that The Plaintiff could under no circumstances have any definitive knowledge of, pointed to a weakness of character that bordered on the delusional.


Don't worry, the UK will catch up to US eventually.

Did you mean that the other way 'round?

I'm in the beginning stages of my own thick vs thin test. I wonder if my results will be similar to Gokhan's, completely opposite or somewhere in the inconclusive range? Only time and about 37,000 more miles will tell...

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Gokhan,

I was thinking about your low wear metal numbers. Yes, this might be due to the miraculous properties of TGMO but there is an alternative explanation.

Your 1985 Toyota has now put on 267,000 miles. Whilst your engine clearly isn't knackered, it has probably reached that point where it has essentially stopped wearing out....


An excellent point and I've thought the same thing actually...

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Here's one of those devastating 10W60 oils...
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthr..._10#Post4387829


Well, at least you're not cherry picking UOA's..

I don't usually give a Rat's about UOAs, as they are a lubricant condition/condemnation tool rather than what they are attributed to on BITOG, just given the rant against that grade in BMWs in this thread, and the "fact" that every UOA is better on TGMO it seemed fitting.


I couldn't agree with you more, actually...

But he is getting his UOA's from a reputable source IMO...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
I couldn't agree with you more, actually...

But he is getting his UOA's from a reputable source IMO...


:falls off chair:

 

[Kuato]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
I couldn't agree with you more, actually...

But he is getting his UOA's from a reputable source IMO...


:falls off chair:

In all seriousness, what source(s)/service(s) should be utilized to insure accuracy? I am trying to eliminate any bias from my own study.

 

[FlyPenFly]

If you look at the BMW M4 manual for international markets, you'll see they primarily recommend a 40w oil. I think this pretty much confirms that lighter oil requirements in the US are due to fuel efficiency standards not really engine protection. In the US, they recommend a 30w and make no mention of a 40w.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: FlyPenFly
If you look at the BMW M4 manual for international markets, you'll see they primarily recommend a 40w oil. I think this pretty much confirms that lighter oil requirements in the US are due to fuel efficiency standards not really engine protection. In the US, they recommend a 30w and make no mention of a 40w.

No, they require an oil that meets a specification. I don't read that to say BMW feels LL-01 is inferior to LL-01 FE. It is this spec that (among other things) defines the HTHS.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: FlyPenFly


If you look at the BMW M4 manual for international markets, you'll see they primarily recommend a 40w oil. I think this pretty much confirms that lighter oil requirements in the US are due to fuel efficiency standards not really engine protection. In the US, they recommend a 30w and make no mention of a 40w.

If more than one SAE viscosity grade is recommended for a gasoline engine, the rule of thumb is to go with the lightest recommended SAE viscosity grade, which will provide best of all worlds: least engine friction, most oil flow, most horsepower, most fuel economy, and so on. For a gasoline engine, if the viscosity grade isn't too thin to cause bearing oil-film breakdown under the largest torque/RPM ratios the engine experiences, it's adequately thick. Heavy-duty diesel engines are a different story as they benefit from thicker oil film because it separates the surfaces more from the abrasive soot particles in the oil.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: FlyPenFly
If you look at the BMW M4 manual for international markets, you'll see they primarily recommend a 40w oil. I think this pretty much confirms that lighter oil requirements in the US are due to fuel efficiency standards not really engine protection. In the US, they recommend a 30w and make no mention of a 40w.

No, they require an oil that meets a specification. I don't read that to say BMW feels LL-01 is inferior to LL-01 FE. It is this spec that (among other things) defines the HTHS.

For LL-01 minimum HTHSV is 3.5 cP and for LL-01 FE it's 3.0 cP. It's interesting that BMW recommends both thin and thick oils for the same engine. I would go with the thin one.

 

[fdcg27]

From where did you pull this "rule of thumb", one of which I've never heard nor has anyone else here?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
From where did you pull this "rule of thumb", one of which I've never heard nor has anyone else here?


That's CATERHAM's rule of thumb, echoed by Dr Haas...

 

[PimTac]

So, not a official recommendation?

 

[fdcg27]

I think you've got it backward.
Haas boasted of running a twenty grade in his Ferrari long before Caterham showed up and boasted of running the same in his 328i.
Neither seems to be seen here anymore, so it appears that Gokhan has taken up the torch.

 

[PimTac]

This thread can close if everyone came to the agreement that there is room for all grades if oil depending on use, climate etc. This thin oil or nothing argument will keep going on and on as evidenced by this thread.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I think you've got it backward.
Haas boasted of running a twenty grade in his Ferrari long before Caterham showed up and boasted of running the same in his 328i.


The recommendation to use the thinnest oil in the manual first came from CATERHAM, along with the "5W20 was specified in my girlfriend's 510 Datsun" (factually it was, but only up to 18F), and his (pinto ??) was specced for 20W20.

Haas, I agree was the first to run modern ILSAC 20s in applications which weren't in the manual.