Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict

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Originally Posted By: PimTac
Didn't the Japanese manufacturers get a variance from that TEOST test due to the fact they use tons of moly in their 0w-20 oils which would fail? Has there been a connection between high moly content and increases in build up? It would seem that piston cleanliness especially rings and lands are the most susceptible in engines today.


I don't have an inside track on this one. The Japanese push to remove Teost on 0W20s probably happened after I escaped from the asylum.

However I am wondering if Moly got blamed from a problem it didn't actually cause? I say that because although I never tested Moly at the kind of levels (1000 ppm-ish) you sometimes find in Japanese oils, if I ever did run into Teost problems, Moly was always one of the additives I'd reach out for first as a fix.

Maybe just maybe, high levels of Moly got conflated with high levels of neat PMA VII and Moly got the blame because PMA doesn't flag itself up up on a standard oil analysis. Interesting...
 
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I always thought Proof of Performance testing was expensive - so how can getting OEM approval be cheap ?
 
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe


Although I'm now out of the loop, I occassionally get folks telling me that Product X which I developed back in 2004 is still going strong. That's pretty good longevity in the engine oil market!


That's good to hear!

I invested heavily in an oil for my car that's isn't the lastest and de facto greatest offering. It ticks most of the boxes I wanted, and the least of the boxes I didn't want. I bought enough of it at a low enough price that I can use it for the next 15 years...
 
Industry standard proof of perform testing is expensive and OEM approval programs even more so. I never did that much with the Japanese OEMs on lubes but I did spend three years of my life traipsing over to Tokyo trying to interest them in fuel additives. What a dispiriting, mind-numbing waste of time that was!
 
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
... Typically 1.8% solid VII would equate to about 18% of liquid OCP or HSD VII which is HUGE!!!! This illustrates just how inefficient PMA is as a VII and why you should worry about piston cleaniless if you use this type of oil in your engine. ...
Any chance that's a clue why we can find on the internet so many complaints from unhappy owners of fairly recent Toyota (and Honda, Subaru, and other) vehicles that are guzzling oil due to coked-up rings, etc., despite regular oil changes at their dealers?
 
Originally Posted By: CR94
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
... Typically 1.8% solid VII would equate to about 18% of liquid OCP or HSD VII which is HUGE!!!! This illustrates just how inefficient PMA is as a VII and why you should worry about piston cleaniless if you use this type of oil in your engine. ...
Any chance that's a clue why we can find on the internet so many complaints from unhappy owners of fairly recent Toyota (and Honda, Subaru, and other) vehicles that are guzzling oil due to coked-up rings, etc., despite regular oil changes at their dealers?

Or the lack of these stories in Australia where until recently the default dealer fill was most likely 10W40 A3/B4 semi-synthetic. This has probably recently changed to a 5W30 full synthetic.
 
Originally Posted By: PimTac
It couldn't have been too bad. You didn't check out Kabuchiko or Ginza while you were in Tokyo?

The neon jungle of Shinjuku
 
Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: PimTac
It couldn't have been too bad. You didn't check out Kabuchiko or Ginza while you were in Tokyo?

The neon jungle of Shinjuku



Ah yes. It never sleeps there. 24/7 people. Lots of otaku there as well as Akihabara
 
Originally Posted By: CR94
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
... Typically 1.8% solid VII would equate to about 18% of liquid OCP or HSD VII which is HUGE!!!! This illustrates just how inefficient PMA is as a VII and why you should worry about piston cleaniless if you use this type of oil in your engine. ...
Any chance that's a clue why we can find on the internet so many complaints from unhappy owners of fairly recent Toyota (and Honda, Subaru, and other) vehicles that are guzzling oil due to coked-up rings, etc., despite regular oil changes at their dealers?


Since you can find lots of complaints about everything on the internet, this may not mean much.
The 1% complain while the 99% who have no problems don't bother to answer them.
 
Originally Posted By: CR94
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
... Typically 1.8% solid VII would equate to about 18% of liquid OCP or HSD VII which is HUGE!!!! This illustrates just how inefficient PMA is as a VII and why you should worry about piston cleaniless if you use this type of oil in your engine. ...
Any chance that's a clue why we can find on the internet so many complaints from unhappy owners of fairly recent Toyota (and Honda, Subaru, and other) vehicles that are guzzling oil due to coked-up rings, etc., despite regular oil changes at their dealers?




I have read some of these stories about coked up rings on relatively low mileage vehicles (
Joe's mention of a certain oil component caught my eye. Normally I wouldn't suspect oil unless the owners maintenance was lacking like failing to change the oil regularly. Also, GDI and TGDI engines are running hotter thus another possible source.
 
Originally Posted By: CR94
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
... Typically 1.8% solid VII would equate to about 18% of liquid OCP or HSD VII which is HUGE!!!! This illustrates just how inefficient PMA is as a VII and why you should worry about piston cleaniless if you use this type of oil in your engine. ...
Any chance that's a clue why we can find on the internet so many complaints from unhappy owners of fairly recent Toyota (and Honda, Subaru, and other) vehicles that are guzzling oil due to coked-up rings, etc., despite regular oil changes at their dealers?



I hadn't made the connection but thinking about it, yes, PMA VII based oils could be contributing to the ring deposit problem. Just remember, when you do an oil change, piston cleaniless is the one thing that doesn't get re-set back to zero. Piston cleanliness is a CUMULATIVE problem that gets worse over time. Also remember that when you buy an oil that is labelled API this or ACEA that, all of the engine testing that's done to get that approval effectively just reflects one OCI! Any problems that develop cumulatively will be missed.
 
I see there's some more analysis of US 5W20s that's just been published by PQIA.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4396402/1

Some of these oils have Noacks that I would regard as appallingly high (even if they do conform to the spec). This is what happens when you push Group II use way too far and have nutty ILSAC fuel economy tests which encourage you to drop the CCS to beat the test (the Havoline oil is halfway to being a 0W20!).

If ever there was a set of technical data that illustrated why properly formulated 10W20 would be a good idea, this is it!
 
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Son of Joe, If you had a choice between 0w-20 or 5w-20, which one would you go with in a typical naturally aspirated 4 or 6 cylinder engine ? The climate would be mild.
 
I thought about that since I remember the 10w-40 problems way back and that was something I heard then. Another is price. 0w-20 tends to run a few $$ more than 5w-20 or 30.

Throughout this long thread there has been some bits of evidence that going with a 5w would be prudent. I'm not a thick nor a thin fanatic, but rather go by what the manufacturers recommend. In a warranty situation they would be hard pressed to tell the difference between 5w and 0w.
 
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Son of Joe, If you had a choice between 0w-20 or 5w-20, which one would you go with in a typical naturally aspirated 4 or 6 cylinder engine ? The climate would be mild.





My longstanding view of US engine oils is that generally speaking they are extremely good oils (wear, oxidation stability, etc) except for three things...they are unnecessarily & artificially thin and as a consequence, their Noack is way too high & they contain too much shearable VII.

My advice is in the US, always buy synthetic (not 'synthetic blend' or 'synthetic technology'; just straightforward synthetic). It won't be 'better' oil in the broader sense of the word but in the US, you have to go synthetic just to get the Noack & VII loading down. I would also say that if you have a choice, always buy an API SN oil over an ILSAC GF-5 oil and avoid that label that says 'Energy Conserving'. It's the ILSAC fuel economy tests that so bend GF-5 oils out of shape. Ironically, both oils will probably give you more or less the same fuel economy!

If I lived in a mild part of the US, I personally would go for a 5W20 synthetic over a 0W20. 0W20 is something that the US OEMs benefit from but the oil buying public don't. I might consider a 10W30 but the crazy way things work in the US generally means that a 10W30 is half way to being a 5W30, so there's Noack benefit to be gained (especially if they are full Group IIs).

I guess I'll get some stick for saying this but this is truly how I see things....
 
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I found MB229.5 a good certification to have on any oil to look at because they have to be under a 10% NOACK. Really annoying that Mobil, Pennzoil, and Castrol don't make NOACK figures easy to find in their most popular oils.

Must commend Valvoline and Redline on being straight forward and up front about all their specs. Makes me trust them more.
 
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Thanks for your response SOJ. One thing that steers my choice towards the 5w oil are the NOACK numbers. Most of the specs are very close but the NOACK on 5w-20 runs lower that its 0w counterpart. Valvoline is one of my go to brands. Per their PDS, 0w-20 Synpower is 12% NOACK while the 5w-20 comes in at 10%. Looking at their Full Syn with MLT, the 0w-20 is 11.4% while the 5w-20 comes in at 9.3%. Those are substantial differences.
 
Concerning 5w20 or 0w20...
All things being equal, 0w20 has better numbers all-around (except for maybe Noack). It would depend what matters more to the informed consumer. Of which, i doubt there are many.


Example:
 
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