Thicker or lighter oil? 0w-40 or 0w-30

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BMW LL-01 = ACEA A3/B4 + BMW N20 engine test + BMW N42 engine test

Any halfway decent A3/B4 should pass those two expensive engine tests even if it doesn't bother to pay for them and get certified.

There is really no significant difference between xW-30 and xW-40 A3/B4 oils. All have HTHSV >= 3.5 cP; so, all are thick. KV100 doesn't really matter much unless you have oil leaks or bad valve-stem oil seals.

The Group III full-synthetic Delo® 400 XSP 5W-30/5W-40 CK-4/SN PLUS are interesting choices: new state-of-the-art CK-4 additive package over the tired, old, and outdated A3/B4 additive package, LSPI protection included, and should meet or exceed A3/B4/LL-01 specs/tests despite not being certified for that market. Unlike the Castrol A3/B4 products, there is a huge difference in viscosity for 5W-30 and 5W-40 though: HTHSV = 3.5 cP vs. 4.2 cP and KV100 = 12.1 vs 15.4, respectively..

The PAO-based "Walmart 0W-40" (German Castrol 0W-40) has LL-01 and is a great bargain, as nothing beats PAO and BP/Castrol's additive technology should be halfway decent.
 
Edge 0w40 isn't PAO based, it's a Group 3 based oil. Not to say it's s bad oil.

I quite like the look of Castrol Edge 0w30 Dexos 2. Its a full Group 4 synthetic that carries quite a few approvals including LL04. I know you can't get it in the US, can you get it in Canada?
 
Originally Posted by TheMidnightNarwh
Originally Posted by Oildudeny
You're out of warranty and already pushing more boost, why not just use a heavy duty oil like this?

https://www.chevronlubricants.com/en_us/home/products/delo-400-xsp-sae-5w-30.html



Okay but why?

That oil is not readily available in Quebec where I live also Mr. Midnight.Go with 0w30,I believe it's best for winter or year round in your situation. I know some others will disagree. jmo.
 
Originally Posted by Bailes1992
Edge 0w40 isn't PAO based, it's a Group 3 based oil. Not to say it's s bad oil.

I quite like the look of Castrol Edge 0w30 Dexos 2. Its a full Group 4 synthetic that carries quite a few approvals including LL04. I know you can't get it in the US, can you get it in Canada?

Thanks for the correction. I see that most if not all Castrol oils sold on amazon.de are HC synthetic (Group III) with 0W-30 being the exception (German full synthetic = PAO).

Also, as you said, 0W-30 is C3/LL-04/dexos 2 mid-SAPS and 0W-40 is A3/B4/LL-01 full-SAPS; so, Castrol 0W-30 and 0W-40 are totally different oils as far as additive packs are concerned.
 
You are fine doing what you have been.
You would be fine going to 30 grade also.
If both are listed in your owners manual you are fine.
On here you are going to get everyone's pet oil and for the most part they will all work.
Most folks here overthink things.
Don't go over to the dark side.
 
Hey guys, I will stick with Castrol 0W-40. I had also already bought some for my next oil change.

But I made an interesting discovery. My 335is basically has the same engine as the BMW 1M Series coupe.

If you check at the official dealer BMW oil 0W-40, it lists it is for the 1M Series coupe, M2, new M3 and the new M4. So I guess 0W-40 is actually the deifnite oil for the car.

But then you guys mentioned Shell oil 0W-40 compared to Castrol's 0W-40 doesn't specifically mean they are same viscosity? Or in this case they are since they are both BMW LL01? Is that it if I understand correctly.
 
Originally Posted by Bailes1992
Edge 0w40 isn't PAO based, it's a Group 3 based oil. Not to say it's s bad oil.

I quite like the look of Castrol Edge 0w30 Dexos 2. Its a full Group 4 synthetic that carries quite a few approvals including LL04. I know you can't get it in the US, can you get it in Canada?


Current (2018) MSDS for Castrol Edge 0w-40 A3/B4 shows 25-50% PAO, so no, it isn't majority PAO based anymore, but still has a good slug of it. Edge 0w-30 A3/B4 shows the same percentage, whilst the product you've mentioned shows 50-75% PAO.
 
Originally Posted by TheMidnightNarwh
Hey guys, I will stick with Castrol 0W-40. I had also already bought some for my next oil change.

But I made an interesting discovery. My 335is basically has the same engine as the BMW 1M Series coupe.

If you check at the official dealer BMW oil 0W-40, it lists it is for the 1M Series coupe, M2, new M3 and the new M4. So I guess 0W-40 is actually the deifnite oil for the car.

But then you guys mentioned Shell oil 0W-40 compared to Castrol's 0W-40 doesn't specifically mean they are same viscosity? Or in this case they are since they are both BMW LL01? Is that it if I understand correctly.

No, Longlife-01 oil is the definite oil for the car. The grade is largely irrelevant, only coming into play if you live in a very cold climate.
 
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by TheMidnightNarwh
Hey guys, I will stick with Castrol 0W-40. I had also already bought some for my next oil change.

But I made an interesting discovery. My 335is basically has the same engine as the BMW 1M Series coupe.

If you check at the official dealer BMW oil 0W-40, it lists it is for the 1M Series coupe, M2, new M3 and the new M4. So I guess 0W-40 is actually the deifnite oil for the car.

But then you guys mentioned Shell oil 0W-40 compared to Castrol's 0W-40 doesn't specifically mean they are same viscosity? Or in this case they are since they are both BMW LL01? Is that it if I understand correctly.

No, Longlife-01 oil is the definite oil for the car. The grade is largely irrelevant, only coming into play if you live in a very cold climate.


Ok but a lot of people are running Non LL01 oil and it's fine. I personally wouldn't do it because you never know but it's not just LL01 that is important here... the grade is to. I'm not going to put 10W-60 BMW oil in there lol. And it's LL01
 
Originally Posted by TheMidnightNarwh
Ok but a lot of people are running Non LL01 oil and it's fine. I personally wouldn't do it because you never know but it's not just LL01 that is important here... the grade is to. I'm not going to put 10W-60 BMW oil in there lol. And it's LL01

It is? Other than being very expensive and perhaps a poor choice of W rating for your location, why wouldn't you?
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Bailes1992
Edge 0w40 isn't PAO based, it's a Group 3 based oil. Not to say it's s bad oil.

I quite like the look of Castrol Edge 0w30 Dexos 2. Its a full Group 4 synthetic that carries quite a few approvals including LL04. I know you can't get it in the US, can you get it in Canada?

Current (2018) MSDS for Castrol Edge 0w-40 A3/B4 shows 25-50% PAO, so no, it isn't majority PAO based anymore, but still has a good slug of it. Edge 0w-30 A3/B4 shows the same percentage, whilst the product you've mentioned shows 50-75% PAO.

0W-40 A3/B4 definitely has Group III (HC-synthese) in it according to the German label. If it's 25 - 50% PAO, the balance is Group III and perhaps some POE as well. In contrast, Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 is 10 - 20% PAO and 40 - 70% GTL, probably with no Group III:

[Linked Image]


0W-30 C3/dexos2 has no Group III in it. It's PAO + POE (vollsynthese). So, it's 50 - 75% PAO, and the balance is POE and the additive package, with no Group III:

[Linked Image]


It would be great if the labeling laws were the same in USA as in Germany, requiring that a full synthetic can't have GTL, Group III, or below.
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Both German Castrol 0W-30 nor German Castrol 0W-40 are thick oils, as they are ACEA A3/B4, which requires HTHSV >= 3.5 cP.

In fact, 0W-30 has a little thicker base oil than 0W-40, with lower NOACK as a result (8.3% vs. 9.1% for 0W-30 vs. 0W-40, respectively).

The main difference is the viscosity-index improver (VII) content. 0W-40 has 50% more VII than 0W-30. The end result is that HTHSV = 3.5 cP vs. 3.7 cP for 0W-30 vs. 0W-40, respectively. It's a small difference really and may only be relevant if the vehicle is pushed to its limits.

Since 0W-30 has a thicker base oil, lower NOACK, and less VII, it's a better oil than 0W-40 unless the vehicle is pushed to its limits. It's preferred over 0W-40 for 99% of the drivers throughout the year.

The higher KV100 of 0W-40 (12.2 cSt vs.13.5 cSt for 0W-30 vs. 0W-40, respectively) would help lower the oil consumption through valve-stem oil seals if there is any significant amount.


Question regarding "0Wx30 has a thicker base oil ... than 0Wx40"

0Wx40 has a higher KV100 than 0Wx30 as you have listed and as expected.

I assume 40 grade final product (base+vii+etc) should be thicker than 30 grade ...

One would expect that the base of 40 to be thicker if not same as 30 but not thinner!

You did not list KV40. I am assuming they are relatively the same. Does this have anything to do with KV40 differences?
What determines the "thicker base oil"?
Is this concept (40 has a thinner base than 30) specific to this particular oil or is it a universal fact?
 
Originally Posted by SilverFusion2010
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by Oildudeny
You're out of warranty and already pushing more boost, why not just use a heavy duty oil like this?

https://www.chevronlubricants.com/en_us/home/products/delo-400-xsp-sae-5w-30.html



What advantage is there in Delo conventional?


More viscosity, more ZDDP compared to your ILSAC GF-5 lubricants. HDEO is a good choice for just about any high power application as long as LSPI is not a concern.

Just to clear up a misconception here. At the outset, that lubricant can be suitable for European vehicles where A3/B4 is specified. However, this example is not a conventional and will not have elevated ZDDP, because it's an E6 lubricant. In reality, these days, there are enough specials on Pennzoil Platinum 5w-40, Castrol 0w-40 A3/B4, and M1 0w-40 that a synthetic HDEO isn't as attractive an option as it used to be.
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Bailes1992
Edge 0w40 isn't PAO based, it's a Group 3 based oil. Not to say it's s bad oil.

I quite like the look of Castrol Edge 0w30 Dexos 2. Its a full Group 4 synthetic that carries quite a few approvals including LL04. I know you can't get it in the US, can you get it in Canada?

Current (2018) MSDS for Castrol Edge 0w-40 A3/B4 shows 25-50% PAO, so no, it isn't majority PAO based anymore, but still has a good slug of it. Edge 0w-30 A3/B4 shows the same percentage, whilst the product you've mentioned shows 50-75% PAO.


0W-40 A3/B4 definitely has Group III (HC-synthese) in it according to the German label. If it's 25 - 50% PAO, the balance is Group III and perhaps some POE as well. In contrast, Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 is 10 - 20% PAO and 40 - 70% GTL, probably with no Group III:


0W-30 C3/dexos2 has no Group III in it. It's PAO + POE (vollsynthese). So, it's 50 - 75% PAO, and the balance is POE and the additive package, with no Group III:


It would be great if the labeling laws were the same in USA as in Germany, requiring that a full synthetic can't have GTL, Group III, or below.


I think we are basically saying the same thing. The German law simply requires the majority of the base to be synthetic; >50%. So it is quite possible for the C3 lubricant to have some Group III in it. But it won't be the majority of the base oil, and the numbers in the MSDS support that with the 50-75% PAO figure. Contrarily, the 0w-40 @ 25-50% PAO will be majority Group III as we've both noted at this juncture.
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
In contrast, Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 is 10 - 20% PAO and 40 - 70% GTL, probably with no Group III

But of course the GTL product is Group III.
 
Originally Posted by OilUzer
0Wx40 has a higher KV100 than 0Wx30 as you have listed and as expected.

I assume 40 grade final product (base+vii+etc) should be thicker than 30 grade ...

One would expect that the base of 40 to be thicker if not same as 30 but not thinner!

You did not list KV40. I am assuming they are relatively the same. Does this have anything to do with KV40 differences?
What determines the "thicker base oil"?
Is this concept (40 has a thinner base than 30) specific to this particular oil or is it a universal fact?


It's pretty typical.
For a given "W" in order to get a wider "spread", you need more VII, and then have to go lower in basestock to accomplish it.
Per Mobil blending "guide" (not recipe book as some would have us believe)
(yes that's 0W synthetic blends in the second charts...0W aren't ALWAYS synthetic as others would posit.

mobil blend.jpg


0W blends.JPG
 
Originally Posted by ka9mnx
Well said Garak and the oil companies are catching on with ACEA specs.

I believe Doug Hillary is using Delvac 1 LE 5w-30, a similar lube to my Rotella T6 5w-30. But, we are fortunate these days in North America, particularly in Canada. When I had my old Audi, it definitely allowed HDEOs, which were not out of spec in the slightest. Back then, the only A3/B4 lubricants available were one quart bottles of GC 0w-30 A3/B4, M1 0w-40, and RP 0w-40. The RP was the cheapest (for me), but still not anywhere near as cheap as a synthetic HDEO, let alone a conventional HDEO.

Incidentally, the ACEA specs are useful when one wants to have an idea of HTHS, SA, phosphorus, and TBN, particularly with HDEOs.
 
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Both German Castrol 0W-30 nor German Castrol 0W-40 are thick oils, as they are ACEA A3/B4, which requires HTHSV >= 3.5 cP.

In fact, 0W-30 has a little thicker base oil than 0W-40, with lower NOACK as a result (8.3% vs. 9.1% for 0W-30 vs. 0W-40, respectively).

The main difference is the viscosity-index improver (VII) content. 0W-40 has 50% more VII than 0W-30. The end result is that HTHSV = 3.5 cP vs. 3.7 cP for 0W-30 vs. 0W-40, respectively. It's a small difference really and may only be relevant if the vehicle is pushed to its limits.

Since 0W-30 has a thicker base oil, lower NOACK, and less VII, it's a better oil than 0W-40 unless the vehicle is pushed to its limits. It's preferred over 0W-40 for 99% of the drivers throughout the year.

The higher KV100 of 0W-40 (12.2 cSt vs.13.5 cSt for 0W-30 vs. 0W-40, respectively) would help lower the oil consumption through valve-stem oil seals if there is any significant amount.

Question regarding "0Wx30 has a thicker base oil ... than 0Wx40"

0Wx40 has a higher KV100 than 0Wx30 as you have listed and as expected.

I assume 40 grade final product (base+vii+etc) should be thicker than 30 grade ...

One would expect that the base of 40 to be thicker if not same as 30 but not thinner!

You did not list KV40. I am assuming they are relatively the same. Does this have anything to do with KV40 differences?
What determines the "thicker base oil"?
Is this concept (40 has a thinner base than 30) specific to this particular oil or is it a universal fact?

As Shannow pointed out, you see this in the ExxonMobil examples in their synthetic handbook.

You need to adjust both KV100 and HTHSV as you increase the VII (viscosity-index improver) content (increase the y - x spread in xW-y). They need a large VI (viscosity index) to increase the HTHSV at 150 C. This means more VII (viscosity-index improver), which means a thinner base oil to keep the KV100 (at 100 C) in target.

I was looking at the CCS and MRV values when I said that 0W-40 had a thinner base oil than 0W-30.
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
I think we are basically saying the same thing. The German law simply requires the majority of the base to be synthetic; >50%. So it is quite possible for the C3 lubricant to have some Group III in it. But it won't be the majority of the base oil, and the numbers in the MSDS support that with the 50-75% PAO figure. Contrarily, the 0w-40 @ 25-50% PAO will be majority Group III as we've both noted at this juncture.

Do you have a reference for this? ExxonMobil says that a vollsynthese (German full synthetic) is 100% PAO. Note that POE is also synthetic and not shown in MSDS because it's not hazardous. Additive package could be around 20%; so, the remaining balance in the MSDS could be POE.

My guess is that a vollsynthese (German full synthetic) doesn't have any Group III.

Presentation on the Group III+ (Visom) reformulation of the previously PAO Mobil 1 oils (PDF link)

[Linked Image]
 
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