Still having oil Detergents confusion....

[ZZman]

I keep reading conflicting information on detergents in motor oil. Some sources say they clean, others say they keep deposits from forming on surfaces. Can they do both, or which is it? Does one do a better job then another?

What in motor oil actually cleans up old deposits? Is it the base oils used?

 

[Overfill]

Depends on the deposit. Sludge, yes. Varnish, not really, no.

 

[ZZman]

depends on the deposit

Go on....

 

[Overfill]

Detergents are there to prevent deposit formation. They can clean up sludge, but are not sufficient to solubilize varnish films. @OVERKILL has a nice flowchart that helps delineate the difference between sludge and varnish. Significant solubility is generally achieved by incorporation of specially engineered Group V base oils.

 

[ZZman]

Detergents are there to prevent deposit formation. They can clean up sludge, but are not sufficient to solubilize varnish films. @OVERKILL has a nice flowchart that helps delineate the difference between sludge and varnish. Significant solubility is generally achieved by incorporation of specially engineered Group V base oils.

So they do in fact clean, not just suspend contaminates. Would this include carbon deposits on pistons/rings?

 

[Overfill]

So they do in fact clean, not just suspend contaminates. Would this include carbon deposits on pistons/rings?

Depends on the deposit. Sludge, yes. Varnish, not really, no.

No, not carbon deposits on pistons/rings either.

 

[ripcord]

There's detergents and there's cleaning. The metallic compounds like calcium, magnesium, etc in motor oil are there mostly to keep particulates in suspension and prevent them from adhering to the internal engine surfaces. They do little (but not nothing) to remove already adhered particles (sludge).

Esters on the otherhand can be more effective at removing sludge which is why some oils are better than others at removing sludge and varnish.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

IIRC Alkylated naphthalenes (AN) (Grp 5) can remove varnish

Alkylated naphthalene | ExxonMobil Product Solutions

Synesstic™ AN is a synthetic base stock for step-out hydrolytic and thermo-oxidative stability. As a blend component with PAO or mineral oils, Synesstic AN can extend the performance of your lubricant.

www.exxonmobilchemical.com

Edit: I'm not so sure anymore because AN are non-polar so I don't know how they should not be able to pull varnish off.

 

[ZZman]

No, not carbon deposits on pistons/rings either.

So how do oils show they clean up pistons and oil rings? What is doing it?

 

[ZZman]

IIRC Alkylated naphthalenes (AN) (Grp 5) can remove varnish

Alkylated naphthalene | ExxonMobil Product Solutions

Synesstic™ AN is a synthetic base stock for step-out hydrolytic and thermo-oxidative stability. As a blend component with PAO or mineral oils, Synesstic AN can extend the performance of your lubricant.

www.exxonmobilchemical.com

Edit: I'm not so sure anymore because AN are non-polar so I don't know how they should not be able to pull varnish off.

I was thinking more of heavy deposits or deposits on pistons/oil control rings. Many oils claim they can clean them up and keep them clean. Like Valvoline Restore and Protect.

 

[Overfill]

So how do oils show they clean up pistons and oil rings? What is doing it?

[It's] generally achieved by incorporation of specially engineered Group V base oils.

IIRC Alkylated naphthalenes (AN) (Grp 5) can remove varnish

Esters on the otherhand can be more effective at removing sludge which is why some oils are better than others at removing sludge and varnish.

Usually carbon deposits are adhered to the metallic surfaces and adjacent grains by varnish.

 

[ZZman]

There's detergents and there's cleaning. The metallic compounds like calcium, magnesium, etc in motor oil are there mostly to keep particulates in suspension and prevent them from adhering to the internal engine surfaces. They do little (but not nothing) to remove already adhered particles (sludge).

Esters on the otherhand can be more effective at removing sludge which is why some oils are better than others at removing sludge and varnish.

So some group 5 oil in the mix does the cleaning not detergents.

Seems silly to call Calcium/magnesium detergents if they don't actually clean. So confusing.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I was thinking more of heavy deposits or deposits on pistons/oil control rings. Many oils claim they can clean them up and keep them clean. Like Valvoline Restore and Protect.

We you don't know what they're using and a UOA doesn't show everything anyways so it's a rather pointless exercise.

 

[Overfill]

So some group 5 oil in the mix does the cleaning not detergents.

Seems silly to call Calcium/magnesium detergents if they don't actually clean. So confusing.

Its a right title-- they are detergents. But not even Tide gets rid of all my stains, so my expectations just need realigning, I guess.

 

[ZZman]

We you don't know what they're using and a UOA doesn't show everything anyways so it's a rather pointless exercise.

But I want to know....

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

But I want to know....

I kinda wish UOA's didn't publish additive levels but without them what would we bicker over?

 

[Overfill]

For @TiGeo. It just belongs in this thread.

 

[Astro14]

I kinda wish UOA's didn't publish additive levels but without them what would we bicker over?

UOAs don’t actually publish additive levels.

They publish the levels of basic elements.

Big difference.

 

[Overfill]

I was thinking more of heavy deposits or deposits on pistons/oil control rings. Many oils claim they can clean them up and keep them clean. Like Valvoline Restore and Protect.

"Many"?
The devil's in the details of their wording.
Most products are built to fit a spec. The specs are a game of deposit prevention. There's no onus to have varnish removal performance.

 

[ZZman]

I kinda wish UOA's didn't publish additive levels but without them what would we bicker over?

Or they should publish all these "hidden" additives we hear about on here.