I had to look that word up! Stop using big words! ;-)
So what is the deal with HPL Oil?
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Resist perturbation. You'll be inculcated in no time.
My...head...hurts...........................................................................................................................
What's the origin of the specious?
"Dr. John Ellis, the inventor of a petroleum lubricant for steam engines, founded Valvoline on September 6, 1866."
Did that oil have a lot of moly?
The highlighted is where I call this "specious."
This is a thread about the nature of HPL, and there is a disconnect.
Well said.
Never mind.
Well...... everyone has their bone to pick.
I'll give you a direct example that can outline unintended consequences. The industry completely reformulated passenger motor oils in response to LSPI. This was done after many of these engine designs were already fully in production and on the road. Ford and GM both released these designs prior to 2010. At some point, the severity of LSPI came under the spotlight but it wasn't during the development cycle of the engines. Many of the published articles on LSPI in the lubrication world are in the early 2011-2018 range, well after the release of these vehicles. Dexos 1 gen 2 didn't come out until 2017, nearly a decade after these engines were in the hands of their customers.
There were plenty of experienced smart people in 2009 that had full confidence in their motor oil additive packages, and less than a decade later, the entire industry changed them. Many of these issues wouldn't have shown up in a fleet study, especially one that included a variety of vehicle designs.
So forgive my conservatism, but I'm not changing my tune just because some really smart people are making cool stuff.
I'll give you a direct example that can outline unintended consequences. The industry completely reformulated passenger motor oils in response to LSPI. This was done after many of these engine designs were already fully in production and on the road. Ford and GM both released these designs prior to 2010. At some point, the severity of LSPI came under the spotlight but it wasn't during the development cycle of the engines. Many of the published articles on LSPI in the lubrication world are in the early 2011-2018 range, well after the release of these vehicles. Dexos 1 gen 2 didn't come out until 2017, nearly a decade after these engines were in the hands of their customers.
There were plenty of experienced smart people in 2009 that had full confidence in their motor oil additive packages, and less than a decade later, the entire industry changed them. Many of these issues wouldn't have shown up in a fleet study, especially one that included a variety of vehicle designs.
So forgive my conservatism, but I'm not changing my tune just because some really smart people are making cool stuff.
In your view, what is the degree of risk (your term !) in using HPL products, and what is the frequency of LSPI events in the real 2023 world ?
Re: bolded comment above- appropriate maintenance for a vehicle using all top-tier fluids (HPL, Amsoil, Redline, Mobil 1 EP, etc) will be greatly different than the appropriate maintenance using an oil that is formulated to the bare minimum of the certification. There are plenty of UOAs that show this truth where the viscosity is out of spec or the TBN drops precipitously low when comparing the “cheap” oils to the oils made from better materials at even shorter intervals.personally I think what happens most of the time for any vehicle that has had appropriate maintenance, no matter whether it is bargain basement store label products or hind end boutique products is the vehicle falls apart before the engine does or the owner just gets tired of said vehicle and wants to drive something else... aka the grass is greener on the other side of the fence effectanyI figure for every person out there using magicoil or real purper and a voodoo by pass filter there is another guy getting the same result using the loss leader 5 quart and a filter sale products from the honeydoo local auto parts..
IMO, spending more on better oils & filters and using them to their “appropriate maintenance” schedule which is longer and eliminates waste compared to more frequent changes is a much smarter plan.
I have no way of evaluating that. Based on the composition of the HPL products, I'd say that they are at less risk of LSPI if I had to venture a guess. Volatility is low, moly high, and in their PCMO series, the Calcium is at Dexos levels.
But you are missing the point. I'm not saying that LSPI is the issue. I'm saying that if you have a product with non-standard composition, you have a higher risk of unintended consequences. That is the case in any field, not just motor oils.
The better argument to make would have been to point out that my example was for a standardized product. The LSPI issue was with a run-of-the-mill API additive package that was the standard of the day and there was still an unintended consequence.
It really sounds like you are unwilling to concede that the risk is inevitably very low with HPL. I do not find your example to be particularly compelling either.
Do you know if the dexos standard was created by oil experts & engineers or by beam counters and interns?
it is worth saying the specifications aren't a bare minimum and you won't find any proof that oils claiming to be 3 times better or any other claim actually perform any better than spec oils.. I do know that the boutique oil fanboys always throw out that " those are minimum specs " thing without realizing what they are saying and I will say you provided your own disclaimer though..
but less face the idea in a different way.... if a person could change their oil for 30 dollars using the cheap stuff and just following the schedule, how does it save anything to spend 70 dollars to do the same thing and then spend 30 dollars a pop to do an oil analysis so they can extend the interval if you could do the same thing with the 30 dollar stuff? has anyone actually tried it out for proof? Some of these claims are made using the hi end price range oils with analysis, but has anyone actually done it in a good comparison test with the cheaper stuff as a baseline... I don't mean on one vehicle, but using a fleet type with hundreds of vehicles so the averages are real averages? I think everyone has seen some of the older Consumer reports testing done with taxi fleets and other tyes of tests, and read that the end result was just buy whatever brand you want, but has anyone really seen a good comparison of some baseline off the shelf oils versus the boutique stuff in some form of standardized test in a real world situation. My opinion is people are wasting their money on the hi end stuff but that it makes them feel good about it.
I posted the rear label of a store brand of synthetic Diesel Engine Oil and it includes a list of all the "minimum" specs the oil meets as an example.
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The problem comes in that no one here as far as I know could determine which oil causes less wear. It is very well established that increasing the HT/HS decreases wear. Comparative wear testing is expensive and complicated. The OCI also has a large influence as well as driving habits and operating conditions.
But wear isn't everything either. Oxidation resistance, resistance to deposits and sludge formation, ring sticking, all these are considerations (along with wear) over the long term. And "long term" is also relative, it has mattered to me with my vehicles but I am probably not typical.
But wear isn't everything either. Oxidation resistance, resistance to deposits and sludge formation, ring sticking, all these are considerations (along with wear) over the long term. And "long term" is also relative, it has mattered to me with my vehicles but I am probably not typical.
I think the big problem for most end users is they only have one or a few personal examples at a time to worry about or draw any conclusions from... so whatever opinion a person has about the subject isn't based on much but a very small list of personal examples.. I'm 63 years old and at last count I believe I have owned about 25 or so personal vehicles in 46 or so years of driving..which is not a very broad cross section to form a research based opinion on. Now if you could get your numbers from something like a police car fleet or a truck or bus fleet you might be able to prove something, or maybe not.. its also worth saying fleets aren't looking for ultimate life out of a vehicle as they usually have a replacement cycle, so they are looking for good enough while keeping costs down.. its also worth saying very few people keep their own vehicle long enough to get the same thing..
