Actually, re HPL, there is ample substantiating information available, should the consumer wish to access it.
So what is the deal with HPL Oil?
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What? As someone who has previously owned a fleet of vehicles, and with a family business that still owns a fleet consisting of trucks, forklifts, and cranes, I’m absolutely concerned with getting the most life out of my equipment as possible. I did not have a set “replacement cycle”, and I’d wager that this is the case for most every fleet of working vehicles that aren’t rentals or customer-facing in some way. Replacing vehicles that don’t require it is wasteful. Using a higher quality oil means I can change my oil less often, which reduces equipment down time.
Also, while I recall from my car sales days that the average trade cycle was around 32-36 months, we here on BITOG don’t represent the “average” car owner. Look at people’s signatures on here, or peruse the other high mileage threads that proliferate this forum. We keep our cars much longer than the average consumer, often times SEL beyond the 200k mile mark. We discover build up, grime, oil burning, etc that a lot of people don’t keep their car long enough to see. We take a particular interest in discovering how to best preserve and protect our equipment. We’ve also seen evidence of “boutique” oil cleaning out build up in engines where off-the-shelf oils were regularly in use. While I understand that these personal evidences may not justify any additional cost or heart ache for you, for a lot of folks here, it’s been evidence enough to make that justification.
On the other hand, there’s some people on here that just want to do business with small, American-owned companies who are willing to answer questions and be transparent about their product. Whatever suits you, that’s fine.
OVERKILL
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So, to this point, who is aggregating and analyzing this data on "industry standard products". Do you think it's Warren or Walmart tracking this information on Supertech? Maybe it's Costco on Kirkland. Or maybe GM keeps track of who changes their oil at Jiffy Lube or some other quick lube, maybe one that's using a bulk Dexos lube blended with re-refined base oils?
The reality is that nobody is tracking this. Approvals, which constitute a suite of tests, are developed by the API, ACEA and OEM's and then the additive manufacturers will produce additive packs that, when blended with a range of acceptable base oils, yield and approved product. The quality of those base oils in that range can vary considerably as can the quality of the additive package itself, from barely meeting the requirements to grossly exceeding them. No extensive fleet testing is performed by the OEM with that lubricant or with those additive packages.
This is why we get reactionary field campaigns for unanticipated issues, because there's no way to achieve the product release cycle consumers are accustomed to if massive and extensive field and fleet testing was performed with each new product or iteration. The consumer is very much the beta tester, just like with software.
The manufacturers have an oil partner. For GM, that's Mobil, for FCA, that's Pennzoil, for Porsche, that's also Mobil, for BMW, it's Castrol. They work with these partners to test different lubricants for performance and for developing testing protocols. Once these protocols are developed, which range WILDLY in terms of deviation from the basic API or ACEA specifications/sequences, the additive manufactures like Infinium, Afton, Lubrizol...etc develop additive packages that pass those sequences. No actual fleet testing is performed on those products.
Unintended consequences happen regardless of whether the product is approved or not. See Toyota's oil return holes plugging and sludge issues, the Honda VCM fiasco, the EcoDiesel failures...etc. All of these were developed and TESTED with what was deemed an acceptable, approved, lubricant. The testing performed was clearly inadequate.
Furthermore, when you have an OEM spec'ing just the API approval, the range of product quality; the chasm this creates, is absolutely massive, and that's been a common issue.
If the standardized product yields heavy varnish and gummed up ring lands, do we blame the standard, the OEM or the blender?
The risk isn't mitigated just because you are using an approved lubricant, you are simply then at the mercy of the adequacy of that approval in gauging performance in service as well as the legwork the OEM has done. This is the primary reason I've always been a fan of the Euro approvals, as they are significant in scope and a product that carries numerous Euro OE approvals has necessarily been more extensively tested than one that just has the ACEA or API approval. The bar is set that much higher.
For a vehicle within warranty, I tend to prefer a premium approved lubricant just for the simplicity of warranty compliance in the event there is an issue. Once out of warranty, that can be cast to the wind.
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This is my position too. I think what HPL does is cool, but I guess I don't understand "why". If you were to buy a brand new car and run only Mobil 1 in it for 15 years, or run only HPL in it for 15, well, either way you're getting to 15 years on those oils with no issue. Why pay more for the same end result?
OVERKILL
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But it's not necessarily the same end result.
See this thread:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/07-odyssey-valve-cover-photos-and-cam-scoring.335965/
That's a 14 year old vehicle, it has:
- Scored camshaft
- Heavy varnish
- High oil consumption
Now, assume you could avoid most, if not all of that by using a better oil.
Even within the premium tiers, M1 API oils don't perform the same as their Euro ones, there's a reason M1 0W-40 is one of, if not the only one they've ever claimed can actually clean.
There are a variety of factors that play into the condition of an engine in 15 years and design is one of them. Some engines are significantly harder on oil than others, which is why Trav was recommending M1 0W-40 for the above engine there, based on his experience tearing them down and them having stuck oil control rings and massive amounts of varnish, even when run on a quality synthetic.
In principle, your thought process is valid. I don't think anyone will disagree that the data collected by additive suppliers and OEM's will be broader than what any boutique blender has the resources of doing. To an informed consumer, it should be obvious that the testing limitations faced by a boutique blender will always carry some level of risk and they should keep this in mind when choosing a product for their circumstances. For instance, if the consumer has an engine that has a known history of LSPI issues and they are not confident in the boutique blender's validation of LSPI mitigation, then it may be wise to use an approved lubricant.
In summary, know your application, know your boutique product's potential weaknesses and make an informed decision.
What actually would be the result of taking say....HPL's Euro 5W40 oil and running it through all the tests for VW502, Porsche A40, BMW LL-01, Mercedes 229.5...the same suite of approval most of the popular Euro xW40s possess? Would it pass? If not, what would fail? I have no idea so I'm asking the question to the oil-gods here.
OVERKILL
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I'd assume it would pass, it starts with an approved additive package and adds some top treatment (mostly FM stuff like moly) and higher quality base oils.
I am inclined to agree, though I'm curious where HPL would end up from an SA standpoint - 229.5 caps it at 1.5%.
The full SAPS specs are kind of an obsolete spec anyway and I expect market share to shrink over time. All of the newer Euro cars call for (or allow) mid and low-SAPS oils now.
OVERKILL
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Yeah, anything with a GPF/DPF specs mid to low SAPS, and since that's basically everything going forward, the full SAPS stuff is going to become less and less relevant.
Shell claims that too(active cleansing technology)
https://www.shell.com/motorist/oils-lubricants/helix-for-cars/pureplus.html
ice engine oils will almost be obsolete over time,
OVERKILL
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Can you show me on that page where it claims to clean up existing deposits? There's a difference (a significant one) between keeping things clean and cleaning up garbage from previous lubricants.
Shell is describing keeping things clean, not cleaning up existing deposits.
Mobil, in comparison, has quite bluntly claimed that the 0W-40 will actively remove sludge and varnish from previous oils.
It is possible that having chemistry that cleans up existing deposits is a serious liability for mass-market oils. Customers are notorious for stretching advertised intervals and if an OTC oil has powerful cleaning capabilities, it could result in clogged oil filters and engine damage.
OVERKILL
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And that could be why we have only ever really seen that advertised for M1 0W-40? The very heavily fortified full SAPS additive package (lots of detergents) likely means better capability for keeping anything cleaned-up in suspension than something low SAPS.
Do you think bean counters know what any of the language in these standards mean? It’s of course drafted by engineers. The only “bean counters” involved would be the engineers or other stakeholders at the oil companies that want the oil to be as cheap as possible to produce. I’m not saying it’s a perfect specification, but I am sure it represents what GM thinks is actually necessary with a small margin built in.
Unsurpassed sludge protection
Shell Helix Ultra with PurePlus Technology helps to protect high-performance engines from harmful deposits that hinder power and performance.It has proven performance on the road. In field tests, Shell Helix Ultra with PurePlus Technology demonstrated superb engine cleanliness. The result, our test vehicles maintained the same fuel economy and performance as they had the day they left the factory*.
No other motor oil cleans your engine better**.
*Based on 100,000 Km fleet trial
**Based on Sequence VG sludge test results using OW-40
There seems to be a puritanical obsession with cleanliness here. I have watched a lot of engine teardown video, esp BMWs, and can say that it does not appear that the amount of varnish correlates with wear on things like bearings until it was extreme and obvious that the OCI was not followed. I don’t see a reason anyone here changing their oil every 5000 miles with a quality synthetic should be concerned.
Would Mobil 1 0W-40 keep things cleaner than Mobil 1 ESP 0W-30?
The reason I ask is I had used Pennzoil Platinum and then Pennzoil Ultra Platinum, and the oil is getting darker soon on the ESP, what I am looking at could mean nothing or maybe a change in chemistry of different oils. I am betting that HPL's oils would do some serious cleaning.
