So what is the deal with HPL Oil?

[MSCH]

ok, I don't think I understand you, can you be more specific? good eno ugh

oils meeting a certain rating should be treated as a commodity.

 

[Bjornviken]

oils meeting a certain rating should be treated as a commodity.

quite comical that you get such answers when you ask when they will start selling outside America. Becomes directly sensitive for some. I am just curious.

 

[RDY4WAR]

HPL has >2 billion miles of data with their oils, and since they're not restricted by certs, they can change and update formulas by the batch in response to that data. They also keep retain of every batch should an issue arise. Distancing from certs and licensing gives you a lot more freedom in blending.

 

[53' Stude]

The additive package used is an approved D1G2 (now D1G3 in the No VII PCMO line) and API SP / GF-6A additive package. High Performance Lubricants uses that additive package as a base foundation and then top treats to reach the performance level they're looking for. They also use base oils that are superior to the base oils used for the certifications. They cannot use the actual certification since they deviated from the approved formula, despite that deviation being for the better, but they can say it meets the requirements because it does. HPL would have to go through all of the testing for their own oils to be certified which is very cost prohibitive. The ROI isn't there to fork out the 6 figure cost to have the testing done to certify their formula. Then if say a year later, they test out a new AO or EP additive and find better performance with it, they'd have to do that expensive testing all over again to be able to add it to their existing formulas because they'd be deviating again. It's not worth it.

The unfortunate thing about those certifications is the almost monopoly that's put on them. You won't find many, if any, major oil brands testing their oils for those certifications. If they are sending it out for testing, or doing their own testing in house, it's usually profit/bottom line measure rather than a performance seeking one. There are very few exceptions. Most of the testing for those certifications is done by the additive companies like Infenium, Lubrizol, Oronite, etc... They put together an additive package and base oil blend, send it out for certification/approval testing, and then sell that additive package as an approved add pack to the oil brands who then blend that additive package to the base oil blend used for the certification, or variation allowed within, slap a starburst on the label, and send it out the door. There's a few add packs that get certified and thus some variation between brands depending on which they buy and use, but they largely perform similar to one another. This forces all oils with that certification into the same small box chemistry wise.

Say a brand wants to add ester to their formula to increase the heat and shear stability, reduce volatility, and improve cleaning ability, if the additive package they're using was not tested with ester in the base oil blend, they can't use it and keep the certification. Even though the oil performs better with the ester, it doesn't matter. It's no longer an approved formula. So you either have to accept the API's indirect ceiling on performance or ditch it to make a better product.

Approvals and certifications are good for weeding out the scammer gas station brands trying to sell you line flush as engine oil. Some set a little higher bar than your typical API minimums. They all indirectly create a ceiling though. If you're looking for a better performing oil than what you see on the shelf, you have get certifications off your mind.

Very good info sir. I thank you.

 

[Bjornviken]

HPL has >2 billion miles of data with their oils, and since they're not restricted by certs, they can change and update formulas by the batch in response to that data. They also keep retain of every batch should an issue arise. Distancing from certs and licensing gives you a lot more freedom in blending.

Nice, that's alot of miles of data. Is the data public?

 

[TiGeo]

HPL has >2 billion miles of data with their oils, and since they're not restricted by certs, they can change and update formulas by the batch in response to that data. They also keep retain of every batch should an issue arise. Distancing from certs and licensing gives you a lot more freedom in blending.

It requires a trust with the company and with HPL that is clearly not an issue!

Many folks simply want an oil that has specifications/approvals that guarantees a performanc standard - I get it. I hope the folks that think this is the way to go also are ok with other brands that have "recommended for" lanaguage w/r to this.

 

[kschachn]

It requires a trust with the company and with HPL that is clearly not an issue!

Many folks simply want an oil that has specifications/approvals that guarantees a performanc standard - I get it. I hope the folks that think this is the way to go also are ok with other brands that have "recommended for" lanaguage w/r to this.

As you note that depends on the trust with the company.

 

[TiGeo]

As you note that depends on the trust with the company.

I believe that most of the popular name-brand oils posted around here with "recommended for" language are trustworthy/no reason to be concerned.

 

[kevperro]

oils meeting a certain rating should be treated as a commodity.

I think by definition, standard motor oils that meet a given spec are just that. Gasoline that meets the Top-Tier designation is the same.

 

[DavidJones]

There is a market for everything. The folks at HPL found a niche. Bravo. Me? In my 50 years of driving, I've yet to have an oil related issue using what's available off the shelf.

 

[kevperro]

It requires a trust with the company and with HPL that is clearly not an issue!

Many folks simply want an oil that has specifications/approvals that guarantees a performanc standard - I get it. I hope the folks that think this is the way to go also are ok with other brands that have "recommended for" lanaguage w/r to this.

I think trust can mean several things. For one, there is trust in their integrity and intent to do right. That is earned through the interactions that they have with their customers, vendors, and business partners. All indications are that HPL earns the coveted "Five Star" for the back of their bottle award in that respect.

Then there is trust in their knowledge and expertise in their field. Once again, I think HPL gets another "Five Stars". But my argument isn't with the trust in the company's integrity, nor with their expertise. My point is that anyone who deviates from standard practice, risks outcomes that also deviate from the standard. The hope is a deviation for the better but the world is a complicated place and the value in standards, while boring and mundane, is that you have more certainty about outcomes.

That isn't throwing any shade on HPL in my eyes. They make a superior product in pursuit of something that is better than the standard. It is their position in the marketplace. I'm only pointing out that "better" is sometimes a complicated onion to peel and that there is value in standards that goes beyond the spider chart performance of the product.

 

[RDY4WAR]

Outright catastrophic failures from oiling issues, that aren't a matter of neglect, are quite rare. That is true. What happens much more frequently is long-term wear and fatigue. For instance, API SP allows 15% volatility in D5800 Noack (1) which is awful. A lot of common store brand 5W-30 and 5W-20 oils are in the 9-13% range. (2) Higher volatility is directly linked with increased accumulation of piston and ring deposits, as well ring coking, varnish, and poor ring seal over time. There's also some evidence that it is linked to oil consumption. (3) Boutique oils with much lower volatility (
Sources
(1) API Engine Oil Classification Brochure - Infineum

https://www.infineum.com/media/w5kpot0y/api-engine-oil-classifications-brochure2.pdf

(2) PQIA Noack Results

PETROLEUM QUALITY INSTITUTE OF AMERICA TEST PROGRAM

The Petroleum Quality Institute of America (PQIA) is an independent resource for information and insights on the quality of lubricants in the marketplace. Our mission is to serve the consumer of lubricants by randomly sampling and independently testing lubricants taken from the field. Test...

pqiadata.org

PETROLEUM QUALITY INSTITUTE OF AMERICA TEST PROGRAM

The Petroleum Quality Institute of America (PQIA) is an independent resource for information and insights on the quality of lubricants in the marketplace. Our mission is to serve the consumer of lubricants by randomly sampling and independently testing lubricants taken from the field. Test...

pqiadata.org

PETROLEUM QUALITY INSTITUTE OF AMERICA TEST PROGRAM

The Petroleum Quality Institute of America (PQIA) is an independent resource for information and insights on the quality of lubricants in the marketplace. Our mission is to serve the consumer of lubricants by randomly sampling and independently testing lubricants taken from the field. Test...

pqiadata.org

(3) SAE Technical Paper 2022-01-0524

Research on Ultra-High Viscosity Index Engine Oil: Part 2 - Influence of Engine Oil Evaporation Characteristics on Oil Consumption of Internal Combustion Engines

The reduction of CO2 emissions is one of the most important challenges for the automotive industry to contribute to address global warming. Reducing friction of internal combustion engines (ICEs) is one effective countermeasure to realize this objective. The improvement of engine oil can contribute

www.sae.org

 

[DirectRejection]

I think trust can mean several things. For one, there is trust in their integrity and intent to do right. That is earned through the interactions that they have with their customers, vendors, and business partners. All indications are that HPL earns the coveted "Five Star" for the back of their bottle award in that respect.

Then there is trust in their knowledge and expertise in their field. Once again, I think HPL gets another "Five Stars". But my argument isn't with the trust in the company's integrity, nor with their expertise. My point is that anyone who deviates from standard practice, risks outcomes that also deviate from the standard. The hope is a deviation for the better but the world is a complicated place and the value in standards, while boring and mundane, is that you have more certainty about outcomes.

That isn't throwing any shade on HPL in my eyes. They make a superior product in pursuit of something that is better than the standard. It is their position in the marketplace. I'm only pointing out that "better" is sometimes a complicated onion to peel and that there is value in standards that goes beyond the spider chart performance of the product.

In the case of HPL, what standard is being deviated from ? They have huge fleet results on this engine.

Some of us customers are making sure to only extend OCIs gradually and methodically. UOAs can then provide some useful information.

 

[Bjornviken]

Outright catastrophic failures from oiling issues, that aren't a matter of neglect, are quite rare. That is true. What happens much more frequently is long-term wear and fatigue. For instance, API SP allows 15% volatility in D5800 Noack (1) which is awful. A lot of common store brand 5W-30 and 5W-20 oils are in the 9-13% range. (2) Higher volatility is directly linked with increased accumulation of piston and ring deposits, as well ring coking, varnish, and poor ring seal over time. There's also some evidence that it is linked to oil consumption. (3) Boutique oils with much lower volatility (B]

Sources
(1) API Engine Oil Classification Brochure - Infineum

https://www.infineum.com/media/w5kpot0y/api-engine-oil-classifications-brochure2.pdf

(2) PQIA Noack Results

PETROLEUM QUALITY INSTITUTE OF AMERICA TEST PROGRAM

The Petroleum Quality Institute of America (PQIA) is an independent resource for information and insights on the quality of lubricants in the marketplace. Our mission is to serve the consumer of lubricants by randomly sampling and independently testing lubricants taken from the field. Test...

pqiadata.org

PETROLEUM QUALITY INSTITUTE OF AMERICA TEST PROGRAM

The Petroleum Quality Institute of America (PQIA) is an independent resource for information and insights on the quality of lubricants in the marketplace. Our mission is to serve the consumer of lubricants by randomly sampling and independently testing lubricants taken from the field. Test...

pqiadata.org

PETROLEUM QUALITY INSTITUTE OF AMERICA TEST PROGRAM

The Petroleum Quality Institute of America (PQIA) is an independent resource for information and insights on the quality of lubricants in the marketplace. Our mission is to serve the consumer of lubricants by randomly sampling and independently testing lubricants taken from the field. Test...

pqiadata.org

(3) SAE Technical Paper 2022-01-0524

Research on Ultra-High Viscosity Index Engine Oil: Part 2 - Influence of Engine Oil Evaporation Characteristics on Oil Consumption of Internal Combustion Engines

The reduction of CO2 emissions is one of the most important challenges for the automotive industry to contribute to address global warming. Reducing friction of internal combustion engines (ICEs) is one effective countermeasure to realize this objective. The improvement of engine oil can contribute

www.sae.org

i have only 500k km at my land cruiser using euro oils from Shell Castrol Mobil1. High standards oils indeed

 

[MSCH]

..

 

[MSCH]

Outright catastrophic failures from oiling issues, that aren't a matter of neglect, are quite rare. That is true. What happens much more frequently is long-term wear and fatigue. For instance, API SP allows 15% volatility in D5800 Noack (1) which is awful. A lot of common store brand 5W-30 and 5W-20 oils are in the 9-13% range. (2) Higher volatility is directly linked with increased accumulation of piston and ring deposits, as well ring coking, varnish, and poor ring seal over time. There's also some evidence that it is linked to oil consumption. (3) Boutique oils with much lower volatility (
Sources
(1) API Engine Oil Classification Brochure - Infineum

https://www.infineum.com/media/w5kpot0y/api-engine-oil-classifications-brochure2.pdf

(2) PQIA Noack Results

PETROLEUM QUALITY INSTITUTE OF AMERICA TEST PROGRAM

The Petroleum Quality Institute of America (PQIA) is an independent resource for information and insights on the quality of lubricants in the marketplace. Our mission is to serve the consumer of lubricants by randomly sampling and independently testing lubricants taken from the field. Test...

pqiadata.org

PETROLEUM QUALITY INSTITUTE OF AMERICA TEST PROGRAM

The Petroleum Quality Institute of America (PQIA) is an independent resource for information and insights on the quality of lubricants in the marketplace. Our mission is to serve the consumer of lubricants by randomly sampling and independently testing lubricants taken from the field. Test...

pqiadata.org

PETROLEUM QUALITY INSTITUTE OF AMERICA TEST PROGRAM

The Petroleum Quality Institute of America (PQIA) is an independent resource for information and insights on the quality of lubricants in the marketplace. Our mission is to serve the consumer of lubricants by randomly sampling and independently testing lubricants taken from the field. Test...

pqiadata.org

(3) SAE Technical Paper 2022-01-0524

Research on Ultra-High Viscosity Index Engine Oil: Part 2 - Influence of Engine Oil Evaporation Characteristics on Oil Consumption of Internal Combustion Engines

The reduction of CO2 emissions is one of the most important challenges for the automotive industry to contribute to address global warming. Reducing friction of internal combustion engines (ICEs) is one effective countermeasure to realize this objective. The improvement of engine oil can contribute

www.sae.org

personally I think what happens most of the time for any vehicle that has had appropriate maintenance, no matter whether it is bargain basement store label products or hind end boutique products is the vehicle falls apart before the engine does or the owner just gets tired of said vehicle and wants to drive something else... aka the grass is greener on the other side of the fence effect anyI figure for every person out there using magicoil or real purper and a voodoo by pass filter there is another guy getting the same result using the loss leader 5 quart and a filter sale products from the honeydoo local auto parts..

 

[MSCH]

..

 

[TiGeo]

personally I think what happens most of the time for any vehicle that has had appropriate maintenance, no matter whether it is bargain basement store label products or hind end boutique products is the vehicle falls apart before the engine does or the owner just gets tired of said vehicle and wants to drive something else... aka the grass is greener on the other side of the fence effect anyI figure for every person out there using magicoil or real purper and a voodoo by pass filter there is another guy getting the same result using the loss leader 5 quart and a filter sale products from the honeydoo local auto parts..

Truth. This is splitting hairs here most of the time.

 

[kevperro]

In the case of HPL, what standard is being deviated from ? They have huge fleet results on this engine.

Some of us customers are making sure to only extend OCIs gradually and methodically. UOAs can then provide some useful information.

What is deviated, is virtually the entire product. The base oils are exceptional, and the additive package is robust. That is why we buy it.

Also, while I'm sure HPL has plenty of data in a fleet, it isn't even comparable to the users across the entire industry that standard products have going for them. Engineers at vehicle manufacturers are designing in conjunction with standardized products. When you deviate from that standardized product, you take on additional risk, even with "improved" performance. Unintended consequences are by definition..... unintended and not easily anticipated. That is the value of standards and best practice methods in general, not just in motor oil use.

None of that is stopping me from using it but if I were responsible for other people's vehicles, I wouldn't. I'd use an off-the-shelf product that met the OEM guidelines and I'd change it on a conservative schedule. In my own vehicles, I recognize that ownership for me involves my enjoyment of playing around with maintenance, and my choice of lubricants. It is an odd hobby to be sure, but at least I'm not spending my free time in a nudist colony (no judgment!) or experimenting with mushrooms. LOL....

 

[DirectRejection]

This is getting really, really specious.