So what is the deal with HPL Oil?
- Thread starter williamshrader
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Yes again, damage. Which makes sense.
The damage doesn't have to be related for either a dealer or mfg rep to try to blame it on your unconventional oil choice IF they sample or notice somehow. People were being accused of all sorts of stuff back in 2001 when BMW had the rod bearing recall with the S54. Same thing with early S85 and S65 failures. Plenty of engines have design flaws and I can understand if someone, particularly with an expensive high performance engine, does not want to leave any room for blame to be shifted. Toyota / Subaru were out there denying warranty claims for obvious RTV in the oil pickup on minor technicalities. I agree that the odds are remote that anyone is going to notice beyond if there is oil in the engine or not, but it has happened.
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CleanSump
Site Donor 2022
Are you going to pay for repairs when the warranty is denied?
Doesn't even have to be oil related repairs. You use something else, you voided the WHOLE warranty.
MM Act only says they can't make a buyer use the manufacturers products for maintenance.
I think he believes that the dealerships are all nice and cozy and will not look for any reason to deny a warranty.
D
Deleted member 89374
You nailed it!
Yes sorry, had been a long day and got some details mixed w/r to the Redline. Apologies; that’s why we like data
You all can make side arguments and say what you want, but my point still stands and is correct.
Another side point. But I will say that my local VW dealership had no problem under warranty using 504 00 oil in my Tiguan rather than 508 00, per my request. No dire warnings and no drama.
So you mean to tell me those people paid for the “manufacturer approved/recommended/required” oil and likely dealer maintenance fees and STILL had engine failures? Sounds like pretty good grounds to have an arbitrator or judge overturn a warranty denial since the OM oil didn’t deliver, either…
Not sure about every case, but in BMWs case they stopped doing that once it was investigated and in the S54 case there was a recall. For Toyota not sure, they surely know of the problem now and hopefully aren't continuing to blame aggressive driving for Subaru's inability to keep loose RTV out of the oil pickup. My overall point is that it's wise to avoid giving dealers and manufacturers any reason for denying a claim, because the people assessing it are often not capable of critical thought.
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So I have seen nothing about NOACK numbers for HPL, either on their site or this one. Is there a chart published somewhere with the different weights and respective NOACK? Of course there is a chart on their site with other numbers and specs, but no NOACK. They clearly state "LOW" NOACK, I would like to compare them to some others before I drop 1000 in oil.
They use TGA instead of Noack. They don't test Noack as it's a bit pointless given the base oils they use. Volatility just isn't a concern. They did run Noack on their PCMO 10W-20 just for the heck of it, and it was 3.4%.
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WOW that is stellar, at least relative to others. Do you know any documentation that you could send me a link to?
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The Mobil product page still states “Provides exceptional cleaning power for your engine” for Mobil 1 0w-40 FS.Because if it did, they'd advertise it like Mobil does/didThey are careful not to advertise that, and I think @The Critic has likely hit on why that is.
Cleaning requires different chemistry than keeping things clean. You can have a pretty neutral base oil blend and a healthy detergent package and keep things very clean (which is what Shell is claiming). On the other hand, to actually remove existing deposits you need to use:
- Solvent (obviously not going to work as part of a full formulated engine oil)
- Polar additive/base (this is what HPL uses, AutoRX...etc)
Bases capable of removing existing deposits are AN's and esters, both of which are expensive. AN's have the added challenge of having very low VI's, which means you need to blend them with PAO typically to get a 0W-xx Winter grade. Mobil's original "Tri-Syn" formula was PAO + esters and AN's. When they introduced Group III, they stepped away from that single approach and started mixing it up based on cost and performance targets, so you'd get oils like M1 EP 0W-20 with a majority PAO base and then probably just a splash of ester to meet the solvency, while its sister product in 5W-20 would be totally Group III with no PAO and likely little to no AN or ester content.
Their 0W-40, when it was claimed to clean (it doesn't claim that anymore from what I've seen) likely had either AN's, esters, or both in it.
As @The Critic noted, introducing cleaning creates potential for serious problems like plugging up filters because Joe Average isn't going to be short-changing the filter in anticipation of rapid loading due to cleaning taking place. Also, the detergent and dispersant package has limited holding capacity and an oil that's cleaning is going to hit that threshold much quicker than one that isn't. Ergo, there is risk associated with making an oil capable of removing existing deposits.
Don't trust what you read on an oil label. Every brand is going to embellish their product labels to make themselves out as the best thing ever. They're not going to say "We're not the best, but not the worst. We're just okay."
That line above, for example... "Provides exceptional cleaning power for your engine" has no substance to it. Exceptional compared to what? There's no API or ACEA test for cleaning pre-existing sludge and varnish. What's the standard? Exceptional compared to a gas station line flush oil? Exceptional compared to some basic Kirkland conventional?
In the majors and some non-major brands (*cough* Lucas *cough*), the marketing department has a bigger budget and focus than the R&D department because fancy labels sell oil, science doesn't. Most people don't understand the science, but will believe just about anything you slap on a label.
That line above, for example... "Provides exceptional cleaning power for your engine" has no substance to it. Exceptional compared to what? There's no API or ACEA test for cleaning pre-existing sludge and varnish. What's the standard? Exceptional compared to a gas station line flush oil? Exceptional compared to some basic Kirkland conventional?
In the majors and some non-major brands (*cough* Lucas *cough*), the marketing department has a bigger budget and focus than the R&D department because fancy labels sell oil, science doesn't. Most people don't understand the science, but will believe just about anything you slap on a label.
Hope I don’t get banned for asking whether HPL is the Mr. Clean version of Amsoil. I remember reading so much material online about not how great Amsoil is but how much better it was in comparison to other conventional synthetic oil. And all those fancy sites were either owned by or were affiliated with Amsoil if you really dig into their super tiny prints often listed elsewhere.
As we all starting to or already figured out, Amsoil makes great oil and it is clearly a boutique brand just like Red Line and Royal Purple were many years ago but Amsoil has the best marketing department with the most loyal affiliates and dealer network. But is is a great oil clearly not meant for the mass. On the opposite end, we have Kirkland, and to a some extent Wally Syntec, are also great oil at such great price because both Warren and Costco don’t need a massive marketing department to take over any top spot. They just create great oil and hit a very different clientele.
Honestly, I was M1 user for a long time because Mobil One was associated with petroleum and it was my go to oil regardless of price. I wasn’t even wise enough to seek deals and just bought whatever the latest M1 products, first few times at auto part stores, at Wally. For right now, M1 EP is $2 more than M1 FS and it has 20k o stead of 10k rating. If it wasn’t for that Kirkland’s black bottle someone open catching my eye, I would still be a very happy M1 user. And nothing would persuade me to try any brand except Penzoil Ultra Platinum that highly regarded. I actually like to try to see if it makes my Fit’s tiny engine quieter. I am sure butt-dyno will say it is better because I pay more and it is even available at Wally shelf but I’ll never run UOA on it and on Kirkland and M1 to see which is better; I know they are all more than good enough in my mild application.
And after this long winded post, I am intrigued to find out where I can get some HPL in my quest to take my Fit to 300k mile.
As we all starting to or already figured out, Amsoil makes great oil and it is clearly a boutique brand just like Red Line and Royal Purple were many years ago but Amsoil has the best marketing department with the most loyal affiliates and dealer network. But is is a great oil clearly not meant for the mass. On the opposite end, we have Kirkland, and to a some extent Wally Syntec, are also great oil at such great price because both Warren and Costco don’t need a massive marketing department to take over any top spot. They just create great oil and hit a very different clientele.
Honestly, I was M1 user for a long time because Mobil One was associated with petroleum and it was my go to oil regardless of price. I wasn’t even wise enough to seek deals and just bought whatever the latest M1 products, first few times at auto part stores, at Wally. For right now, M1 EP is $2 more than M1 FS and it has 20k o stead of 10k rating. If it wasn’t for that Kirkland’s black bottle someone open catching my eye, I would still be a very happy M1 user. And nothing would persuade me to try any brand except Penzoil Ultra Platinum that highly regarded. I actually like to try to see if it makes my Fit’s tiny engine quieter. I am sure butt-dyno will say it is better because I pay more and it is even available at Wally shelf but I’ll never run UOA on it and on Kirkland and M1 to see which is better; I know they are all more than good enough in my mild application.
And after this long winded post, I am intrigued to find out where I can get some HPL in my quest to take my Fit to 300k mile.
