Shotgun for home protection

[xxch4osxx]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by Marco620
Can you use self defense in Canada? My take was they were to be dispatched with similar force.


So there are different licenses here but I will explain the one that allows me to own a Shot-gun/Rifle (Long guns). It's called a Possession & Acquisition License (PAL), As I only have this type of license and haven't taken the hunting course on-top of that I can only use my gun for sport shooting, hobby-collecting purposes, or for farm/rural property type use like pest control.

Our laws (Governed by the Federal government and apply to all provinces/territories) are such that I can't discharge any gun within city limits or I'm automatically charged unless my life is in jepoardy, I also can't use the gun for self defense unless my life is being threatened with equal or greater force. So the other guy would have to have a gun, be pointing it at me and ready to pull the trigger. Then I can shoot. I would be immediately charged with a court date to explain my actions. In the meantime my license is now temporarily suspended and my guns temporarily confiscated. You can't even point a gun at someone loaded or not just to scare someone away.

There have been incidents up here where this has happened and almost always the charge is dropped against the firearms owner because it was shown to be necessary to safeguard his/her life as they were being threatened.

Now if I shot someone with a knife that would depend on the judge and a good lawyer to get you off sort of thing because it's not equal or greater force. Cameras on the property help with that evidence and I have them for this and other reasons.

I was told in my gun safety course that is mandatory to get a firearms license, that pretty much as long as you don't shoot someone with a gun in the back (a.k.a. they are leaving or running away) then pretty much you are in the clear (after the initial charge etc.) but there is a lot of grey area and a judge that wants to give you a hard time can.

Also we can't shoot somebody for just being on the property or stealing your property, your life has to be absolutely threatened with equal or greater force.

The second type of license we have is a Restricted Firearms License which lets you have a hand-gun for sport purposes only and it's heavily restricted with lots of regulations on how you can use it, that you must be registered with a gun club at all times and must only transport the Firearm to/from the gun club with a letter from the gun-club on you while transport is taking place. You are NOT allowed to stop anywhere in between these two locations with the gun in the vehicle. Eg: To get a coffee or to pee or whatever. If you do they can revoke your license and confiscate your guns.

On-top of the safety course I mentioned above which you need for either license, you must undergo a Federal Police background check and wait a period of time for them to grant you your license. At anytime they may revoke your license and will automatically revoke your license if you have criminal charges laid against you for any reason.

Under no circumstances is there open carry or concealed carry unless you are law enforcement, authorized security or customs officer sort of thing.

All guns must always be disabled with a lock, kept unloaded and ammunition must be stored separately from the firearm preferably in it's own locked container when not in use. So good luck trying to undo the locks and load the firearm when your life is being threatened.

We are also responsible for our guns at all times so if someone gets a hold of it and we haven't reported it stolen any action taken with that gun we can be held responsible for so it's why I have my guns disabled with locks in a gun safe. Not even my spouse knows the codes. (no gun license), and I also keep my ammunition locked in a separate locking compartment in the safe with a different code.

Which reminds me it's time for maintenance on my guns and I gotta check the ammunition for signs of corrosion.


I will add that a PAL or RPAL holder is checked daily by CPIC (Canadian Police Information Computer) not just during the application process. It is done automatically on a daily basis by the computer system that contains all licensed firearm owners.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by StevieC
All guns must always be disabled with a lock, kept unloaded and ammunition must be stored separately from the firearm preferably in it's own locked container when not in use. So good luck trying to undo the locks and load the firearm when your life is being threatened.

Great post, save for this bit, which is not accurate. I know a number of people ascribe to this method of storage, but it is not mandatory. If your gun is NOT locked in a safe, this must be the case, however, a safe negates these requirements.

Storage requirements for a non-restricted firearm in a safe are simply that it must be unloaded. The Ammo can also be stored in the safe. Hence, one can have a mag-fed NR rifle or shotgun in the safe with a loaded mag on the shelf above it and that's perfectly compliant.

I can get into my safe in less than 30 seconds.

 

[StevieC]

I just had a look back through that expensive book they make you buy for the course, and yeah, I took the "Recommendations" and made them "law" in my head. They pointed out many times in the course that it was highly recommended that they be also disabled when locked in the safe.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by StevieC
I just had a look back through that expensive book they make you buy for the course, and yeah, I took the "Recommendations" and made them "law" in my head. They pointed out many times in the course that it was highly recommended that they be also disabled when locked in the safe.


Guess it depends on who teaches it, that wasn't pushed by my instructor at all

The RCMP site is pretty unbiased in its coverage of it:
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/storage-entreposage-eng.htm

 

[StevieC]

They guy that I got to learn under had been doing it for 30 years and also does training for a lot of OPP officers. He's an ex-police officer himself. (Retired)

I wasn't arguing with you... Just saying where that came from is all.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by StevieC
They guy that I got to learn under had been doing it for 30 years and also does training for a lot of OPP officers. He's an ex-police officer himself. (Retired)

I wasn't arguing with you... Just saying where that came from is all.


I had an old boy from Lakefield teach it, probably similar timeframe, also does a ton of local OPP (go figure). Not an ex cop though.

Didn't think you were arguing, just thought it was interesting the different way it's communicated depending on the instructor

 

[StevieC]

Ok, no worries... Yeah our guy would often go over time telling us stories or giving us advice. I just wanted to know what I needed to pass and get out of there. Also because I had work the next day when these classes were going on. I should have done the weekend course but I thought it would be too much to absorb all at once having never had any experience so I opted for the 3 nights with the test on the 4th after a quick review.

 

[OVERKILL]

Ahhh, makes sense. I did the weekend course. I had a ton of prior experience and could have passed the test without the course, but meh, LOL

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Ahhh, makes sense. I did the weekend course. I had a ton of prior experience and could have passed the test without the course, but meh, LOL

Besides I just wanted the Firearms license for the Zombie Apocalypse so I could have a gun and ammo ready.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Ahhh, makes sense. I did the weekend course. I had a ton of prior experience and could have passed the test without the course, but meh, LOL

Besides I just wanted the Firearms license for the Zombie Apocalypse so I could have a gun and ammo ready.

Well yeah, LOL!

 

[Ws6]

I have a benelli supernova tactical. I keep it ready because it can deal with squirrel, or bear, depending on what I stuff in there. I download by 1 and keep various rounds on my dresser so i can pop in whatever is needed. Its also something im comfy with for HD. Not my first choice. My first would be my M4 SBS. Only because i have ear pro by the bed. Without earpro, my suppressed 5.56 carbine.

 

[jstert]

my big concern with shotguns is getting enough useful practice if you're not a hunter. shotguns are a no-go for indoor ranges. outdoor ranges generally limit shotguns to trap/skeet areas, which are ok if you want duck shooting practice, and don't mind the organized, group activity, rule based scoring regimen. absent empty public land or your own few acres it's hard to practice defensive manual of arms and even plink for fun.

handguns (and usually rimfire rifles) are ok at indoor ranges and lend themselves to more casual, defense focused practice.

the only shotgun that i use for home protection is a 20ga h&r single shot, break action. it autoejects spent rounds and can be run fast. no worries about jamming or short stroking. 20ga birdshot is easier on the shoulder, won't penetrate much beyond your intended target and still offers enough oomph. a tsa cable luggage lock wrapped around the slightly opened breech and before the trigger guard renders it safe from prying little fingers but easy to make ready by an adult. search on youtube for relevant and reassuring videos.

 

[dblshock]

12ga. 00B loaded at every exterior door here (no children) potential 4 leg conflits...bear cougar, wolf, coyote all present.

 

[emg]

Originally Posted by jjjxlr8
Well at least you can still get cheap SVT40's and SKS45s from Russia. Those have been non-importable for many years in the US, now, and the prices reflect the limited supply.


Although a cheap SVT40 these days is around 700 Canadian Pesos, because most of the surplus supplies have run out. 900-ish is becoming more common, and the last ones I saw imported were asking 850.

 

[emg]

Originally Posted by StevieC
The second type of license we have is a Restricted Firearms License which lets you have a hand-gun for sport purposes only and it's heavily restricted with lots of regulations on how you can use it, that you must be registered with a gun club at all times and must only transport the Firearm to/from the gun club with a letter from the gun-club on you while transport is taking place. You are NOT allowed to stop anywhere in between these two locations with the gun in the vehicle. Eg: To get a coffee or to pee or whatever. If you do they can revoke your license and confiscate your guns.


That's not entirely true.

You can take the gun to any club in your province without any paperwork from that range, but you probably need to carry the registration certificate with you (seems no-one really knows whether that's a legal requirement, but it's a good idea). You don't have to be a member of that club or any other, though your province may require you to join one before they'll let you buy a restricted firearm (Ontario doesn't, for example).

And you can stop on the way, so long as you follow a reasonably direct route. For example, if you're going to a shooting competition in a different province, you're not likely to be going direct from your house to the range and back again without stopping.

There's also, of course, the Prohibited PAL, which lets you own short-barreled pistols and/or full-autos. But you can't shoot full-autos without permission from the police, and they generally don't give out permission any more.

 

[kschachn]

Can you use the firearms for self-defense? Especially the handguns?

 

[emg]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Can you use the firearms for self-defense? Especially the handguns?


Yes, but you'll likely be in a world of hurt whatever happens. As others have said, if you just pull a pistol out of your bedside table and shoot a bad guy, even if you're not jailed for the shooting, you'll be charged with unsafe storage and probably lose all your guns.

Not so much for animals. A friend of my girlfriend lives in an area where bears like to prowl around the houses, and when she called the cops to say a bear was by their garbage bin, their response was 'well, get a shotgun and shoot it.'

 

[emg]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
That VEPR12 is gorgeous. Unfortunately it is prohibited in Canada, as is anything based on the AK

So is the SPAS-12, because scary-lookin'.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by emg
Originally Posted by StevieC
The second type of license we have is a Restricted Firearms License which lets you have a hand-gun for sport purposes only and it's heavily restricted with lots of regulations on how you can use it, that you must be registered with a gun club at all times and must only transport the Firearm to/from the gun club with a letter from the gun-club on you while transport is taking place. You are NOT allowed to stop anywhere in between these two locations with the gun in the vehicle. Eg: To get a coffee or to pee or whatever. If you do they can revoke your license and confiscate your guns.


That's not entirely true.

You can take the gun to any club in your province without any paperwork from that range, but you probably need to carry the registration certificate with you (seems no-one really knows whether that's a legal requirement, but it's a good idea). You don't have to be a member of that club or any other, though your province may require you to join one before they'll let you buy a restricted firearm (Ontario doesn't, for example).

And you can stop on the way, so long as you follow a reasonably direct route. For example, if you're going to a shooting competition in a different province, you're not likely to be going direct from your house to the range and back again without stopping.

There's also, of course, the Prohibited PAL, which lets you own short-barreled pistols and/or full-autos. But you can't shoot full-autos without permission from the police, and they generally don't give out permission any more.


That's not how it was taught to me in the course... Double check that.

Quote
Target Shooting Practice and Competition
To be authorized to have restricted firearms for target shooting purposes, an individual must provide proof that he or she practices or competes at an approved shooting club or range. For more information about approved shooting clubs and ranges, contact the appropriate provincial or territorial CFO by calling 1-800-731-4000.


Quote
Individuals require an Authorization to Transport (ATT) from a provincial or territorial CFO in order to transport a restricted firearm from one location to another. There is no fee for an ATT.
To be eligible for an ATT, individuals must hold a firearms licence authorizing them to possess restricted firearms.


Source: http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/restr-eng.htm

 

[emg]

Thanks to the last government, ATT for approved ranges in your own province is now automatic once you buy a restricted firearm. You only need to specifically request one if you want to take the gun to another province, or an non-approved range (e.g. an army range).

And, as far as I'm aware, there's nothing in Federal law which requires you to belong to a gun club, it's a provincial decision. I've seen a number of Ontarians say online that they didn't need a club membership because they're hard to get in Ontario (not enough clubs so long membership wait lists).

You can only shoot a restricted firewarm at an approved range, but you could pay day membership at the range instead of annual.

Edit: oh, yeah, you can also build an approved range on your own land. It's expensive, but apparently people have done it: I'd guess it's probably the only way most people could shoot their full-autos these days.