New Rem 870

[AZjeff]

Originally Posted By: billt460


If that's all he did it most likely wouldn't. If he actually wanted to make all the necessary upgrades and changes to transform it into a 870 Police, it would involve replacing a lot of parts. If all that work generated operational problems, it could cause warranty issues. I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time Remington received an 870 that had been bubba'ed in such a way.


Hi neighbor. I don't consider a firearm truly bubba'd until the power tools and the DREMEL come out! If the kitchen 'smithing is reversible bubba ain't happy.

 

[Ramblejam]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
870P - F102203
Express - F112040


Those are identical trigger groups...identical polymer trigger group.


Incorrect, Bubba.

Given your indicated line of work, I would encourage you to obtain F102203. Hold it in your own hands, look at it with your own eyes.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Hi neighbor. I don't consider a firearm truly bubba'd until the power tools and the DREMEL come out! If the kitchen 'smithing is reversible bubba ain't happy.


I would tend to agree. But much like cars, guns are "worked on" by too many people who shouldn't. I'm not saying that is the case here. But I'm sure what comes through the door at Remington would be enough to make a grown man cry in many instances!

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
870P - F102203
Express - F112040


Those are identical trigger groups...identical polymer trigger group.


Incorrect, Bubba.

Given your indicated line of work, I would encourage you to obtain F102203. Hold it in your own hands, look at it with your own eyes.


I looked at the pictures and it looked like the polymer version of the police trigger group. Looking up the specs, it is in fact the aluminum trigger group. Why would I take a step BACKWARDS with the aluminum trigger group? Like I already said earlier, the polymer trigger group has been tested to be more robust and durable than the aluminum one, hence one of the reasons why Remington uses the polymer one on all 870 police guns now.

The polymer trigger group is a good, durable part. People might want the metal one on an older police magnum or Wingmaster gun for aesthetics reasons, but there is no need to replace a polymer trigger group.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
870P - F102203
Express - F112040


Those are identical trigger groups with the difference being the heavier carrier dog spring and heavier sear spring. I already advised the OP that all he has to change is the carrier dog spring for $6. No need to buy an identical polymer trigger group.


They ARE NOT "identical". Far from it. This is the F102203 trigger group as sold by Brownell's. It is constructed of METAL not PLASTIC.

Question: Is the trigger guard on this metal or polymer?

Answer: It is metal (aluminum).

Brownell's from Montezuma, IA (As stated in the Q & A section).

http://www.brownells.com/shotgun-parts/t...k-_-Custom+Link

 

[AZjeff]

This must be like the 10/22 trigger guard, aluminum forever then mid-90s went to plastic and said it was better. Old guys want metal, new guys don't care. Maybe plastic is better and when it's designed that way (Glocks?) OK, but an upgrade to plastic just seems like cost-cutting.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: AZjeff
This must be like the 10/22 trigger guard, aluminum forever then mid-90s went to plastic and said it was better. Old guys want metal, new guys don't care. Maybe plastic is better and when it's designed that way (Glocks?) OK, but an upgrade to plastic just seems like cost-cutting.


Very true. No one is arguing the tensile strength of modern Polymer, (plastic). What most everyone agrees with is PLASTIC LOOKS, AND IS CHEAP. Period, end of story. Would you pay $1,100.00 for a Smith & Wesson Model 41 with a PLASTIC trigger guard? Why not? It's probably "stronger". The problem is it looks like $h!t.

People tolerate it, and perhaps even prefer it on a Glock, because it's nothing more than a relatively cheap, mass produced service pistol with no soul. Designed to go bang when others won't. That doesn't mean people want it on their $2,200.00 Browning Citori Trap guns.... Or on what is supposed to be, and PRICED to be, an 870 that is built to be a cut above. And even the military isn't buying into the whole "plastic is better", argument. They specified metal for both the trigger guard and safety selector switch on the Mossberg 590 A-1 Mil-Spec shotgun. Plastic has it's purpose in manufacturing. But that doesn't mean everyone wants to see it everywhere, and on everything.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: AZjeff
This must be like the 10/22 trigger guard, aluminum forever then mid-90s went to plastic and said it was better. Old guys want metal, new guys don't care. Maybe plastic is better and when it's designed that way (Glocks?) OK, but an upgrade to plastic just seems like cost-cutting.


I was going to bring up the 10/22. Folks who make triggers for it (Kidd, etc) are saying that they can now produce a much better trigger kit that will work in every gun without fitting because the polymer trigger group assembly is so much more consistent and stable than the old metal ones. They have a heap of metal ones in their shop they take OUT of old guns that they sell for super cheap to anyone who wants one.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd


I was going to bring up the 10/22. Folks who make triggers for it (Kidd, etc) are saying that they can now produce a much better trigger kit that will work in every gun without fitting because the polymer trigger group assembly is so much more consistent and stable than the old metal ones. They have a heap of metal ones in their shop they take OUT of old guns that they sell for super cheap to anyone who wants one.
I doubt plastic is more consistent than modern CNC machined parts.

I like metal unless the gun was specifically designed to make use of polymer. I guess if they're trying to cut costs polymer is probably a better option than pot metal.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: hatt
I doubt plastic is more consistent than modern CNC machined parts.


From the horse's mouth:

Quote:


Ruger® 10/22® black polymer/plastic trigger guard

We have this product available for purchase because we have found that our KIDD “Trigger Job” Kit performs superior in the Ruger® polymer trigger guard as compared to the Ruger® older metal guards. We attribute this phenomenon to more consistent hole placement in the polymer guards. So we offer this product in case a customer has purchased our KIDD "Trigger Job" Kit with aspirations that it would work in their Ruger® metal guard but were unsuccessful.

After purchasing this guard you can remove the internals from your metal trigger guard and install them in your polymer guard in order to make your KIDD "Trigger Job" Kit work properly.

Packaging Includes:
Ruger® 10/22® black polymer trigger guard without internal mechanism


From: http://www.coolguyguns.com/Polymer-Trigger-Housing_p_122.html

They had a more in-depth write-up on it, along with a link to buy a metal one if you really wanted it, but I can't seem to find it at the moment. I don't think the metal trigger guards on 10/22s (or even 870 Expresses or 500s) are CNC machined from steel or aluminum billet -- they're likely cast pieces, and polymer can be just as good of an option...more consistency at the same or lower price.

 

[hatt]

KIDD is comparing cheap Ruger cast parts to cheap Ruger polymer parts. Several companies make high quality aftermarket 10/22 guards. They seem to be mostly CNC.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: hatt
KIDD is comparing cheap Ruger cast parts to cheap Ruger polymer parts. Several companies make high quality aftermarket 10/22 guards. They seem to be mostly CNC.


I agree, but we're talking production line-level stuff here, whether it's on the 10/22, the 500, or the 870. Mass-produced assembly line metal parts aren't going to be nearly as nice as an aftermarket CNC piece and may, in fact, not be as tight as a molded polymer part.

The discussion was whether or not the metal parts were better than the polymer parts on production line guns. My point is, it's been demonstrated that production line metal isn't always necessarily better than production line polymer.

There's no question that the aftermarket offers upgrades as expensive as one is willing to pay...

 

[Hokiefyd]

I came across this video while searching for something else. It speaks to the 10/22's original aluminum trigger group vs. the newer polymer. It may not be applicable to the 870 if the metal trigger group is steel, but it's interesting nonetheless.

Ruger's 4.5 pound drop test probably simulates dropping the gun on the ground and having its trigger guard hit a hard object.

 

[billt460]

Again, no one doubts the strength of plastic, (Polymer). What people object to is it LOOKS and IS cheap. In 45 years of shooting and gun ownership involving well over 100 weapons, I have NEVER damaged a trigger guard. Given the choice, I'm willing to bet most people would still much prefer a metal trigger guard in a used 10/22 over a plastic one. If there was no demand for these things, places like Brownell's would not stock and sell them. At premium prices no less. ($116.00 for a metal 870 trigger group).

 

[Hokiefyd]

The OP talked about not feeling the need to change the trigger group because the polymer one is strong. I agree, and the video seems to show that. That's why I posted it -- to affirm to the OP that the polymer one IS strong.

If you don't like the plastic one because of its looks, that's fine. You'll find no argument from me -- that's a subjective thing. Like blue vs. red, tall vs. short. I have no doubt there's demand for metal trigger groups; there's demand for a lot of things based primarily on appearances. It doesn't surprise me that people will spend $116 on a trigger group for a $349 shotgun.

I agree with you that, if they had plans to buy a standard 870 to convert entirely to an 870 Police, it'd be better to just buy the 870 Police to begin with. That doesn't seem to be the case here, though.

 

[CT8]

What is exactly wrong with how the gun works as it is? Seems that its purpose will not wear it out?

 

[stchman]

I too have a shotgun for HD.

I bought an H&R Pardner Pump Protector 5+1. It is a clone of the 870 and since the same company that owns Remington owns H&R, it is a win-win.

I paid $165 shipped for it off Bud's a while back. I cleaned it, took it out to the range, and ran about 100 rounds through it. It shot everything I fed it 100%. Since it is a smooth bore it can shoot any type of ammo.

The thing is built like a tank.

 

[billt460]

Another thing you must remember is that when you compare plastic, (Polymer), to "metal". That encompasses a broad spectrum. There is die cast Aluminum, ("pot metal"), and there is machined steel. Big difference. Repeat that "test" with a machined high carbon steel trigger guard like that on a high end 1911 pistol, or a Smith & Wesson Model 41. The results will be quite different.

 

[Camprunner]

I figured it was time to post my opinions ... I had considered the Rem 870 Police model or models but I just did not want to spend that much. The 870 Express I not only purchased as a HD gun but as a project gun that I feel I can improve upon with some small modifications. The 870 I purchased shoots fine although I still plan a few modifications just simple things polish the chamber, better extractor, stronger carrier dog spring and probably a larger aftermarket safety. That's it! I see no reason to change the stock and the simple bead sight works just fine as for the guns finish frankly I am fine with it a good coat of gun oil every 6-8 months and it will be just fine.

As to working on firearms I am actually quite good at it I own several modified Ruger 10/22 rifles that I built and shoot competitively. I have also worked on several pistols that I shoot competitively. As for the Remington 870 let's face it it's a pretty easy gun to work on and as far as what I am doing I am not changing anything that would effect the safety of the gun.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Another thing you must remember is that when you compare plastic, (Polymer), to "metal". That encompasses a broad spectrum. There is die cast Aluminum, ("pot metal"), and there is machined steel. Big difference. Repeat that "test" with a machined high carbon steel trigger guard like that on a high end 1911 pistol, or a Smith & Wesson Model 41. The results will be quite different.


Of course -- again, though, we're talking about production-grade trigger groups on $250-350 shotguns, here. We're not talking about CNC aluminum aftermarket stuff or what you can find on a $1,000 1911.

The general topic of polymer vs. metal in guns may be worth having, and deserves a separate thread, but I was thinking this topic was about the metal vs. polymer trigger groups in production-grade shotguns.