Shell HX5 15w40 formulation

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I already talked about this oil in other threads but i really ask myself how can pour point be so low (-45c) and flash point be so high (245c) for such a cheap oil? These are similar to the SHU 5w40 and even better than most euro grp III 5w40 available. Also it is SN rated and the newer batches are SN+. I suspect it is not made from grp I at all but more likely grp II or even a mix of grp II and III or GTL with low VII. Do you have any other infos about the oil such as NOACK and HTHS? I suspect this oil to be better than what it claims on the jugs for obvious reasons and a great bang for the buck. Is SonofJoe still around by the way?
 
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Definitely GTL.
Mostly GTL or in small quantity with some grp II being the main ingredient? Why would an oil manufacturer use such a high quality base oil for such a low dollar product? From what i understand API SN doesn't allow an oil to be a full grp I, can you confirm?
 
Mostly GTL or in small quantity with some grp II being the main ingredient? Why would an oil manufacturer use such a high quality base oil for such a low dollar product? From what i understand API SN doesn't allow an oil to be a full grp I, can you confirm?
I really do not know their composition, but based on pour point and flash, there is a lot of GTL.
Why use it? Shell is pioneer in this technology and probably have abundance of it which lowers the price.
 
Looks like a product made for a market segment that needed filling (cheap mineral 15w40 with modern-ish specs), but made the easiest way they could, which probably used the supply chains they had, so probably some GTL.

Years ago I was doing some contract science work for one of the big petrochemical companies that is well known around the world. I operate electron microscopes for a big research heavy university. We were looking at filters, bearings, zeolite catalysts etc

Long days on the EM with two engineers from the company, ample time to chat and talk. It was before BITOG but I was already into oils back then. I asked them if I purchased the good oil that costs more, was I definitely getting a better oil than the cheap stuff.

They said they always delivered what was on the label, or better. So if you purchased the good stuff, then you got the good stuff. But if they needed to make a short run of the cheap stuff, it was easier and more efficient to just keep the production line going on the good stuff but then just put it into the cheap jugs. Everybody wins.

They began to educate me on the difference between university research chemistry and commercial production chemical engineering. For Chem Eng it’s all about keeping the flow going, stopping-starting and testing costs time and money, best avoided if possible.
 
I wanted to get some of this oil for old cars/oil burners and avoid it in my old Benz because it lacks MB 229.1 but after some digging i found that this spec didn't even exist when my both my cars came out and the requirement was something like API SG or ACEA A2/B2. Sometimes i wonder if i'm not wasting my money on 229.5 synthetics and if results would not be just as good with this kind of oil. Not sure i get twice the oil or twice the longevity when there are more pressing matters such as tires, struts etc. These engines are no sludgers, would you trust this oil for OCIs between 7000 and 10000 km? Can engine cleanliness be compromised?
 
No, 7 to 10k these oils will be fine, especially since you get neither extreme;y cold or extremely hot temperatures. The base oil in this HX5 is the next best thing compared to PAO when we consider oxidative stability. The add pack will be pretty stout aswell.

But be careful, the data sheet I found that backs up your numbers is from 2013...

On the other hand, hx5 meets minimal requirement, hx6 meets mb 229.1, hx7 meets mb229.3 and I didn't look but hx8 or whatever is next will likely meet mb229.5. Seems designed so you are tempted to go to the next more expensive product...

I think once my stash of total is finished I'm going with something like HX5 or 6..
 
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I already talked about this oil in other threads but i really ask myself how can pour point be so low (-45c) and flash point be so high (245c) for such a cheap oil? These are similar to the SHU 5w40 and even better than most euro grp III 5w40 available. Also it is SN rated and the newer batches are SN+. I suspect it is not made from grp I at all but more likely grp II or even a mix of grp II and III or GTL with low VII. Do you have any other infos about the oil such as NOACK and HTHS? I suspect this oil to be better than what it claims on the jugs for obvious reasons and a great bang for the buck. Is SonofJoe still around by the way?
SonofJoe is no more. He is bereft of life. He has shuffled off his mortal coil, brought down the curtain & joined the bleedin' choir invisible. In short, he is an ex-BITOG contributor!
 
So, from the top...

If memory serves, HX5 is what used to be Helix Super, which I knew intimately. This newer 15W40 is almost certain to be a Group II/III blend with the Group III being required to pass the Peugeot TU5 engine test to the A3 limits. Tight mineral 15W40 PCMOs always have low Noack volatility (say 7.5%-ish). The addition of a decent splosh of Group III will drop this even further. This in turn goes a long way to explaining the high flash point.

The low pour point is trickier to explain but one thing does pop into my head. In the last desperate gasps of my rapidly dying career, I came up with the idea of putting what I called a 'sacrificial VII' in the oil as a means to beat the TU5. The idea did indeed work & somewhere out there, lost in the weeds of history, is a patent that demonstrated the concept. Now poly-methacrylates make for excellent sacrificial VIIs. They are, also coincidentally, superb Pour Point Depressants!

I'm way out of things these days so can't attest to any of the above being correct. However my gut feel is that it's a more likely an explanation than Shell dropping great gobs of GTL base oil into it. GTL only comes in one flavour (the 4cst sort). This is fine for 0Wxx & 5Wxx oils but is not a natural fit for 15Wxx oils.
 
So, from the top...
Now, being part of the oil development process and knowing what you are talking about, could lead to the upsetting of the delicate balance of the subtle ecosystem that has developed here in vacuo.

If you keep posting such knowledge here, the carnage will be overwhelming.

Best keep to hollow opinion backed by angry emotion. Then everything will be fine.
 
"...Best keep to hollow opinion backed by angry emotion. Then everything will be fine." -@SR5

Cheers! 😉👍🍻
 
Now, being part of the oil development process and knowing what you are talking about, could lead to the upsetting of the delicate balance of the subtle ecosystem that has developed here in vacuo.

If you keep posting such knowledge here, the carnage will be overwhelming.

Best keep to hollow opinion backed by angry emotion. Then everything will be fine.

Yep. Pesky things them there so-called 'facts'! They cause all sorts of problems. No doubt I will soon get euthanised for inflicting myself on people so if you want to know anything, ask before the axe falls yet again...
 
Wow i did not expect that! Thanks a lot for the explanation. I guess what's appealing about a good 15w40 is low Noack as well as as high-ish HTHS and of course lower price as i don't really like waste of any kind. Usually i still buy a high end synthetic to have something with a low Noack as i believe this is important to the health of the engine but it sounds like there are other options. This oil seems more up to date compared to many others on the shelves that are only SL rated.
 
I guess what's appealing about a good 15w40 is low Noack as well as as high-ish HTHS and of course lower price as i don't really like waste of any kind.
I’ve done a few runs of Castrol GTX 15W40 UltraClean semi-synthetic, that was rated API SN/CF and ACEA A3/B3.

It certainly worked fine for me, and was very inexpensive to buy. From memory something like $15 for 5L.
 
so if you want to know anything, ask before the axe falls yet again...
Warm climate, family car, do you go a Group III 5W30 synthetic for a bit more coin, or a Group II 15W40 A3/B3 mineral for a bit less coin ?

For the Group III 5W30 synthetic, would you select the A3/B4 or the Dexos1-Gen2 version, given the same price ?
 
If 0w20 was allowed for my car i would try it but the thinnest i used to use it A3/B4 5w30, with great results too! However 5w30 is even more expensive than 5w40 here, usually at least 40€ or more for 5L. Here if you want cheap it is either 10w40 or 15w40. Wonder how much better a 10w40 is to a modern 15w40 such as the one we are discussing.
 
Warm climate, family car, do you go a Group III 5W30 synthetic for a bit more coin, or a Group II 15W40 A3/B3 mineral for a bit less coin ?

For the Group III 5W30 synthetic, would you select the A3/B4 or the Dexos1-Gen2 version, given the same price ?

Okay, I'll have a go at answering your question but first I want to talk about guitars...

Eddie Van Halen, the virtuoso rock guitarist, famous for his 'brown sound', died recently. I heard Brian May (Queen's guitarist) talking about meeting EVH for the first time. He recounted how they did a guitar swap. Brian played EVH's 'Frankenstrat' (a customised special, made from bits) & Eddie played Brian's original, homemade 'Big Red'. The result? EVH sounded just like EVH & Brian May sounded just like Brian May. The intended moral of this story is that what you might perceive as radically different might, in practice, be nothing of the sort.

Okay, back to oils. Can I assume it's a gasoline car?

Group III 5W30 (presumably A3/B4) or Group II 15W40 A3/B3? For me, the 15W40 is the better lubricant. Reasons are lower Noack, less VII, marginally more ZDDP & possibly less ashless dispersant (not that big a deal for gas engines, more significant for diesels). Also Group IIs are 'greener' to produce than Group IIIs. Also I'm notoriously cheap!

Group III 5W30 full synthetic A3/B4 vs dexos1-Gen 2? For me, the A3/B4 oil wins BUT these two are so close, there's not a lot to differentiate them. I'd opt for the A3/B4 oil because it HASN'T been put through the US fuel economy tests. I don't like these tests because as often as not, they 'encourage' formulators to drop the oil's CCS viscosity to silly levels to cheat the test. Lower CCS means more VII & higher Noack. The A3/B4 oil might also have a higher ZDDP content (but not guaranteed) & a higher TBN.

That said, both of the rejected oils would give better fuel economy & we really do need to think of the children...
 
If 0w20 was allowed for my car i would try it but the thinnest i used to use it A3/B4 5w30, with great results too! However 5w30 is even more expensive than 5w40 here, usually at least 40€ or more for 5L. Here if you want cheap it is either 10w40 or 15w40. Wonder how much better a 10w40 is to a modern 15w40 such as the one we are discussing.
Can I ask where 'here' is? I'm guessing you're in the EU somewhere (he said green with envy now that he's forced to live in BoJo's Bongo-Bongo Barmy Banana Republic)...
 
Guitar playing and oil in the same post, sounds like heaven. I know what you are talking about, i discussed this a lot with some friends and it's in the fingers in the end.

"here" is France by the way.
 
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Guitar playing and oil in the same post, sounds like heaven. I know what you are talking about, i discussed this a lot with some friends and it's in the fingers in the end.

"here" is France by the way.

Lucky you. I spent quite a bit of 1976 working in Levallois (Paris) for Pechiney Ugine Kuhlmann. Was quite an eye opener for a working class lad from the arse-end of The Black Country! My French was truly appalling but my English was barely intelligible back then so no big surprise!
 
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