RLI Bio-Syn 0w-30 - 7,510 miles -'06 Camry 2AZ-FE

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
Originally Posted By: Pablo
but you don't really need RLI.


Pablo what do you think is the right situation(s) for RLI?


That's a good question. The GODs used to say "high fuel dilution situations". Then we saw some other oils do really well with tons of fuel.


Pablo which oils do you recall did very well in the presence of fuel?


HD 5W-40's and 15W-40's. Top brands.

 

[StevieC]

Can someone reference the thread that talked about Ester based oils having higher than usual TAN numbers but them being safe?

Doug commented on that thread as well. Can't remember who the OP was, but it was in the PCMO section.

Steve


EDIT: Here is the thread... http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1583684#Post1583684

 

[Built_Well]

Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Here is all the data I have on the RS4, sorted from high to low TAN. The higher numbers have more to do with the particular engine, fuel used, and mileage on the oil than a particular oil.

Vehicle Mileage Mileage on Oil Oil TAN Nitration TBN
25700 10050 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 5.3 16 3
20940 6066 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 4.4 11 6.4
11352 4772 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 4.26 11 5
62500 10000 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 4.26 17 2.9
16575 5223 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 4.07 13 7.2
53500 10000 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 4.02 13 3.8
14930 10130 RLI Biosyn 40W 3.88 19 3.6
13999 6822 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 3.54 14 4.7
31719 6428 RLI Biosyn 40W 3.46 13 5.3
34429 9137 RLI Biosyn 40W 3.32 14 3.8
30270 5670 Mobil 1 0W-40 3.17 15 6.5
19452 4286 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 3.1 10 7.4
35433 5200 Lubro-Moly Vollsynthese 5w40 3.06 11 4.6
4800 4800 Factory Oil 3.03 12 3.2
4958 2757 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 3 11 8.5
28765 3474 RLI Biosyn 40W 2.97 10 7.4
18309 3039 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 2.92 11 9
15677 5662 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 2.83 14 4.2
3533 1500 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 2.8 8 6.2
37677 5645 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 2.75 12 6.8
38040 6000 Castrol TXT 505 5w40 2.75 12 3.9
29578 5738 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 2.72 12 5.8
25291 5065 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 2.7 7 7
9393 2216 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 2.69 10 9.1
8500 3500 Mobil 1 0W-40 2.61 15 7.4
7515 2525 Castrol Syntec 5W-40 2.6 10 6.7
10015 4735 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 2.59 11 5.8
21780 5205 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 2.58 12 4
6580 4596 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 2.55 10 3.7
4990 2450 Mobil 1 0W-40 2.55 13 5
22030 3103 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 2.51 10 8.8
6900 3500 Castrol Syntec 5W-40 2.49 11 6.4
19703 4117 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 2.45 11 4.8
4986 3000 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 2.4 9 5.1
16780 1906 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 2.4 8 8.5
18061 2995 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 2.4 9 7.8
20226 5160 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 2.4 11 6.5
15471 597 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 2.38 7 9.6
10015 2500 Mobil 1 0W-40 2.37 13 7.1
36224 560 RLI Biosyn 10W-40 PCMO 2.32 9 5.8
20720 3753 Lubro-Moly Vollsynthese 5w40 2.32 10 7.1
14560 3740 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 2.31 10 7.3
15568 4108 Castrol Syntec 5W-40 2.29 11 7.6
29526 7800 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 2.24 15 3.8
9090 3978 Castrol Syntec 5W-40 2.21 11 6.7
30291 6900 Castrol TXT 505 5w40 2.2 11 3.7
7177 2205 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 2.17 11 8.1
14433 3803 Amsoil Euro 5W40 2.15 11 4.6
8233 2935 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 2.1 10 7.8
8080 2755 Motul 8100 X-lite 0W30 2.05 10 8.1
14779 1562 Rotella T CJ4 10W-30 2 7 6.6
9719 2477 Motul Xcess 5W-40 2 11 7.1
3067 3067 Factory Oil 2 9 4.42
11033 2453 Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40 1.98 11 7.2
5112 2352 Mobil 1 0W-40 1.97 11 7.8
37442 1777 RLI Biosyn 10W-40 PCMO 1.93 11 4.1
8654 3289 Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40 1.92 11 6.9
16554 1488 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 1.9 8 9
8866 51.1 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 1.9 9 8.9
10820 3050 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 1.87 11 7.9
13000 5000 Fuchs Titan GT1 5W-30 1.83 10 3.7
8225 3000 Amsoil 5W40 1.81 9 4.3
21339 1113 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 1.8 8 8.4
13682 3963 Motul Xcess 5W-40 1.8 11 6.9
12764 737 6L refreshed (3L Motul, 3L Rotella) 1.8 10 8.5
8815 143 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 1.75 8 9.8
12803 2803 Castrol Syntec 5W-40 1.75 10 6.8
16890 3208 Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40 1.72 11 7.2
8916 40 min Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 1.72 8 8.9
9510 537 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 1.7 9 8.9
11485 3053 Amsoil 5W40 1.7 10 4.8
8916 50 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 1.68 9 8.8
5325 4580 Motul 8100 E-tech 0W40 1.6 11 6.9
5280 3580 Motul 300V 5W-40 1.6 11 6.5
42670 4993 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 1.51 13 4
17864 2990 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 1.5 9 7.9
7242 4175 Motul Xcess 5W-40 1.5 12 5.7
11896 2923 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 1.5 12 7.8
3134 1326 Elf Excellium LDX 5W-40 1.5 9 7.2
3501 2259 Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40 1.48 10 2.8
15738 672 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 1.4 7 9.9
2201 1591 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 1.3 9 8
7770 2600 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 1.3 11 7.2
10059 1086 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 1.3 10 9
17000 4500 Mobil 1 0W-40 1.3 13 6.8
2780 2780 Factory Oil 1.2 9 3.4
4800 4800 Factory Oil 1.2 8 2.3
5005 2250 Amsoil 5W40 1.15 8 5.42
10606 1633 Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40 1.1 11 8.8
5298 3490 Elf Excellium LDX 5W-40 1.1 10 7.6
2540 2540 Factory Oil 1.03 9 1.8
1241 1241 Factory Oil 1 8 4.8
1808 1808 Factory Oil 0.92 8 4.2
2130 2130 Factory Oil 0.9 8 4.5
610 610 Factory Oil 0.85 6 5.5
2030 2030 Factory Oil 0.6 7 3.8
12100 7000 Castrol Syntec 5W-40 0.4 14 4.9
20189 4860 Fuchs GT1 5W30 0.32 11 2.6
25662 3900 RLI Biosyn 5W-40 0.15 12 8.4
5633 2487 Castrol Syntec 5W-40 0.1 11 7.7


Thank you again, RI_RS4. You truly are an asset to BITOG.

RI_RS4's post above is from a thread in the PCMO forum called "All that acid in RLI oil." I'm reviving this thread from June to show that the highest TAN shown above for Bio-Syn 5w-*40* used oil is 5.3 . And in that case, the used TBN was 3.

The TAN for my used BioSyn 0w-30 oil was an astonishingly high 8.5 (and TBN of a meager 2.0). I only went 7,510 miles on my oil, but over a long 9.75 months.

I don't know how many months the 40-weight Bio-Syn above was in use, but the table shows it being used for over 10,000 miles.

So I have to wonder about either (1.) quality control or (2.) excessive time lapse (9.75 months) on the 0w-30 weight oil, especially if the virgin TAN started between 2 or 3, as so many 40-weight BioSyn virgin samples have. I also hope no damage was done to my engine and/or seals.

 

[RI_RS4]

Built_Well,

if you replace Biosyn with Biosyn, the anti-wear layers will not be removed. It's the same chemistry. The only time the layers get replaced is when a new, significantly different chemistry is introduced. The high TAN number is causing no ill effects. It will come down on the next UOA. There is absolutely no reason that the oil can't go to 5K miles at least. A UOA at that point will tell you how much farther it can go.

 

[RI_RS4]

Built_well,

If you are concerned, have a professional give you an opinion. You can have a Dyson interpretation done on your Blackstone UOA. All of the questions you have concerning TAN ... etc, will be answered.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/dyson-analysis.php

 

[Built_Well]

Thank you RI_RS4.

Stevie, I looked at that thread you linked to called "TBN and TAN in ester oils." It's really good information, but it doesn't dismiss high TAN as a cause of concern.

Here's a really good passage in the thread from "Tom NJ." I've placed in bold a key sentence:
=======
"Esters, whether synthetic or bio-based, are constructed from acids and alcohols, and are subject to hydrolysis (reaction with water). Unlike with hydrocarbon base oils, hydrolysis breaks the ester back to acids and alcohols, so a rise in TAN is more likely with esters than hydrocarbons. The acids liberated, however, are weak organic fatty acids and do not do damage unless present in high doses. This is why a high TBN can coexist with a high TAN in such oils. Indeed some of these fatty acids act as corrosion inhibitors! The acids liberated from the degradation of hydrocarbon base oils, however, are much stronger and corrosive. Hence I would expect a different set of rules for ester based oils to allow more TAN than with hydrocarbon based oils.
=======

I'll repeat Tom's sentence that caught my attention:

"The acids liberated, however, are weak organic fatty acids and do not do damage unless present in high doses."

The acids present in my sample of used Bio-Syn 0w-30 were present in extremely high doses. The TAN read at 8.5, far higher than the highest TAN of 5.3 that RI-RS4 had with his 5w-*40* weight oil. Also his TBN in that high TAN sample was still a respectable 3.

My used sample with the astonishingly high 8.5 TAN showed a meager TBN of just 2.0.

 

[saaber1]

Built_Well, I think TomNJ, Molakule, Dyson, and RL_RS4 may be the only guys out there that can tell you "how high is too high" re: TAN in ester-based oils.

I know I have been researching this for quite a while and have been annoying Molakule and TomNJ with Q's about how TBN and TAN in ester-based oils work.

We know that oils such as Redline and Biosyn can simultaneously have both high TBN and TAN. I know for me one of my redline runs (90% city, all approx. 1-2 mile trips with no time for engine to warm up) my tan was I think 5.7 and that felt on the high side to me. Comments from the experts for that run felt that it was not "corrosive" with a TAN that high, but that 5.7 was on "the high side".

Also please look at TomNJ's entire post, not just that one line, such as:

"Indeed some of these fatty acids act as corrosion inhibitors! The acids liberated from the degradation of hydrocarbon base oils, however, are much stronger and corrosive. Hence I would expect a different set of rules for ester based oils to allow more TAN than with hydrocarbon based oils."

"while I have seen recommendations from some manufacturers allowing as high as 5 to 8 TAN before changing for ester oils."

"Without field data to the contrary, I would tend to ignore TANs in high ester based motor oils so long as other UOA data is normal."

The main point here I guess is that ester-based oils have a different set of rules when it comes to TAN and TBN. And interpreting those rules accurately is for the moment beyond the level of knowledge of most of us. A 2nd and 3rd run would make it much easier to tell what is going on with Pb levels, IMO.

I guess all the above is leading up to exactly what Rl_RS4 said, if you want to know if high TAN is related to your Pb levels, and if that should be of concern, have Dyson (or some other expert) look at it. I do very much appreciate the discussion though, as I really want to understand this stuff!

 

[FZ1]

Agree.

 

[21Rouge]

Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
If you are concerned, have a professional give you an opinion. You can have a Dyson interpretation done on your Blackstone UOA. All of the questions you have concerning TAN ... etc, will be answered.


+1. I suggested this 5 pages earlier in this thread. Depending on the response from Bill at Renewable Terry may well be the only person that can accurately analyze this UOA.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
Terry may well be the only person that can accurately analyze this UOA.

I'm pretty sure this is exactly the case.

 

[addyguy]

Even with all the above discussion, it's STILL a waste of good oil to drain the current run of RLI at 3k miles. So, despite all his participation, Built_Well has learned very little here, and is still eltting fear and misunderstanding guide his actions.

His choice entirely; but it is a great example of what Bill in Utah refers to as 'the new BITOG' - decisions made with 'hunches' and 'feelings' without and proof that they are logical decisions.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: addyguy
it is a great example of what Bill in Utah refers to as 'the new BITOG' - decisions made with 'hunches' and 'feelings' without any proof that they are logical decisions.

Agreed.

 

[21Rouge]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: 21Rouge

Pablo what do you think is the right situation(s) for RLI?


That's a good question. The GODs used to say "high fuel dilution situations". Then we saw some other oils do really well with tons of fuel.


Pablo which oils do you recall did very well in the presence of fuel?


HD 5W-40's and 15W-40's. Top brands.


Thanks Pablo, but I was looking for oils that were more of a standard viscosity i.e a 5W30 or even a 0W30 that were known to protect the engine well even in the presence of fuel. Still only RLI?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: addyguy
it is a great example of what Bill in Utah refers to as 'the new BITOG' - decisions made with 'hunches' and 'feelings' without any proof that they are logical decisions.

Agreed.


Good points. It can also be viewed as paying a lot of money for little or no gain in the real world. Bill has commented on that many times too.

 

[21Rouge]

Originally Posted By: addyguy
but it is a great example of what Bill in Utah refers to as 'the new BITOG' - decisions made with 'hunches' and 'feelings' without and proof that they are logical decisions.


I think we are being a bit hard on Built_Well. He ran the oil for a long (time and miles) OCI and did a UOA; saw some #s that made him uncomfortable e.g TAN, TBN, PB and FE. (And for all we know Blackstone may have confirmed his unease with their comments (although I dont believe they have been posted)). Anyways based upon more than just 'feelings' he has decided upon a course of action.

 

[Built_Well]

Originally Posted By: addyguy
Even with all the above discussion, it's STILL a waste of good oil to drain the current run of RLI at 3k miles. So, despite all his participation, Built_Well has learned very little here, and is still eltting fear and misunderstanding guide his actions.

His choice entirely; but it is a great example of what Bill in Utah refers to as 'the new BITOG' - decisions made with 'hunches' and 'feelings' without and proof that they are logical decisions.


I remind Mr. AddyGuy that the extremely high TAN of 8.5 that I posted for a Bio-Syn used oil analysis has never before been seen on BITOG. The maximum TAN for Bio-Syn seen here before this UOA was 5.x--not even close to 8.5.

On top of that the TBN was a mere 2.0.

This is new territory.

Kindly check your attitude at the keyboard, Mr. AddyGuy, and be more polite to your fellow BITOGers.

 

[FZ1]

Who am I going to believe:You or my lying eyes? Lol. We don't run no faux oils down here in Texas,son.

 

[Built_Well]

FZ1, you seem to be talking to RI_RS4--at least his user name is showing in your header. RI_RS4 is an extremely valuable contributor here. Please treat him accordingly. Thanks FZ1

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: FZ1
Who am I going to believe:You or my lying eyes? Lol.

Considering your eyesight depends on your brain, and you are not an expert on UOAs or lubricants, I'd say you should at least give his words a moment's thought.

 

[FZ1]

All in jest,guys. 'Course, the numbers are the numbers,aren't they?