Dodge Durango 3.6L - HPL CK-4 5w-20 - 33,300 miles on oil - 173,000 miles total

[wwillson]

This sample was pulled from my 2014 Dodge Durango with a total of 173,000 miles and 33,300 miles on the oil. I estimate the run time is 835 hours(33,300 miles/40 MPH). The oil is HPL's 5w-20 CK-4 based formula and has been run since Feb 9, 2022, about 23 months. The lab is Wearcheck. The usage on this 5,300 miles run was >75% high speed driving down the interstate. There was 3/4 quart of makeup oil. The PCV valve was changed and oil consumption returned to zero and the oil cooler was changed. Approximately 50% of the fuel used for this 5,300 mile was E-85. Fe wear rate for this 5,300 miles was 2ppm/1k miles. The TBN is still at 7.66 so plenty of alkalinity left. Without the makeup oil, we can extrapolate that the TBN would have been around 4.5, which is darn good for a run this long. Viscosity has increased to 13.2, which is well into the SAE 40 range (12.5-16.29). The Fe wear rate was almost exactly 1ppm/1k miles, which is outstanding.

I believe that this oil has reached it's useful life and will be changed. The condemnation limit of both viscosity and oxidation have been surpassed. @High Performance Lubricants suggests no more viscosity increase than 3 cSt, which is exactly where the viscosity is now. Wearcheck suggests an an oxidation limit of anything > 25, this oil is now at 27.1 (normalized).

[edit added Jan 6, 2024]
This is the oil filter run for the previous 5k miles. I was able to scrape agglomerated material off the filter, a 3cSt increase in viscosity, and normalized oxidation value of 27. The data is telling us that we have found the limit of this oil. The oil has been changed with 6.5 fresh quarts of HPL HDEO 5w-20 and a Fram Endurance filter. I will use the same methodology to determine how long the next run will be.

The air filter was changed with 43k miles of run time. The Si was ticking up during this OCI and it could be that the air filter had too much time. When I removed the filter, I noticed the clean side of the air box was not perfectly clean. Either this air filter let some dirt into the engine or the installer (me) didn't get a tight seal.

A bit of metallic material stuck to the drain plug magnet:

[end edit]

One of my reasons for running this oil out so far was to validate what HPL claims about their engine oils. The claim is that their oils are formulated for extended drains. When I asked David Ward how far can the OCI with these oils be extended? His answer was, "longer than you will be comfortable". Challenge accepted. I put all feelings aside and strictly used data from UOAs and took some pictures inside the engine to check the cleanliness. You have seen the results. In the future I will likely do a UOA every 10k miles, instead of 5k miles. I feel completely confident that I could sample at 20k miles and 30k miles, but will also sample at 10k, because I like data.

Fleets extend oil drains because they save money, which equates to making more profit. I am not a fleet, but did gain on several points. Why change oil when data shows it's not necessary? It seems like a waste of resources and money to throw good oil away. I do not really enjoy crawling under the car to change oil. I did save money by extending this OCI and will save more by reducing the frequency of UOAs.

When I change the oil, I will post more internal pictures taken with my bore scope.

Previous UOA:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...-000-miles-on-oil-168-000-miles-total.375625/

Oil cooler change thread:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...-oil-cooler-installed-on-2014-durango.375802/

Under valve cover pictures:

+13

Dodge Durango 3.6L 174k miles total 34k miles on oil - under valve cover pictures

• wwillson
• Jan 5, 2024
• 22

Sump pictures after oil was drained:

+14

Dodge Durango 3.6L 174k miles total 34k miles on oil - sump pictures

• wwillson
• Jan 7, 2024
• 23

Bore scope inserted through drain plug hole taking a look around.

Data:

Sample Information
Sample Date	Feb 2020	Dec 2020	March 2021	August 2021	October 2021	February 2022	March 15, 2022	September 5, 2022	April 19, 2023	June 13, 2023	October 28, 2023	January 1, 2024
Machine Age miles	116,000	122,200	127,420	132,679	137,615	140,000	141,500	147,000	152,000	158,700	168,000	173,300
Oil Age miles	5,000	11,200	15,820	21,079	26,015	2,500	1,500	7,000	12,000	18,700	28,000	33,300
Makeup oil quarts												0.75
Filter Age miles	5,000	11,200	15,820	21,079	4,936	2,500	1,500	2,000	5,000	6,700	5,000	5,000
Oil Changed	no	no	no	no	yes	yes	yes	no	no	no	no	yes
Filter Changed	no	no	no	yes	yes	yes	yes	yes	yes	yes	yes	yes
Brand	HPL	HPL	HPL	HPL	HPL	HPL	HPL	HPL	HPL	HPL	HPL	HPL
Viscosity	5w-20 HDEO	5w-20 HDEO	5w-20 HDEO	5w-20 HDEO	5w-20 HDEO	5w-20 HDEO	5w-20 HDEO	5w-20 HDEO	5w-20 HDEO	5w-20 HDEO	5w-20 HDEO	5w-20 HDEO
						new formula	new formula
Wear Metals
Iron	5	13	21	42	62	19	6	9	15	17	23	33
Chromium	<1	<1	<1	2	2	<1	<1	<1	<1	<1	1	2
Nickel	0	0	0	<1	0	0	<1	0	0	<1	<1	<1
Titanium	<1	<1	<1	<1	2	<1	<1	<1	0	<1	<1	<1
Silver	<1	<1	<1	<1	<1	<1	0	<1	0	0	0	0
Aluminum	3	3	1	5	5	4	2	4	1	5	8	12
Lead	0	0	<1	1	<1	1	1	0	0	0	3	<1
Copper	3	10	16	39	66	64	31	65	72	69	64	65
Tin	0	<1	0	<1	<1	<1	<1	0	0	0	<1	<1
Antimony	0	0	<1	<1	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Vanandium	<1	<1	0	<1	<1	<1	0	<1	0	<1	<1	<1
Cadmium	0	0	0	<1	not reported	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Additives
Boron	181	81	42	43	23	20	2	2	0	0	1	16
Barium	3	0	1	0	2	0	0	0	0	4	1	0
Molybdenum	523	521	500	518	545	535	492	548	600	590	494	573
Manganese	<1	<1	<1	2	3	1	<1	<1	<1	<1	<1	2
Magnesium	462	446	430	467	461	1078	1091	981	1158	1059	998	1131
Calcium	3422	3237	3203	3379	3562	2812	2431	2458	2767	2645	2340	2637
Phosphorus	788	777	760	754	802	1137	1094	1024	1095	1041	855	1089
Zinc	948	924	884	949	988	1326	1176	1271	1411	1271	1129	1404
Contaminants
Silicon	11	11	15	25	33	17	12	13	18	17	20	22
Sodium	4	4	5	8	8	4	0	3	5	4	16	19
Potassium	1	<1	2	3	4	1	0	2	2	3	4	3
Fuel %	<1.0	<1.0	<1.0	<1.0	<1.0	<1.0	<1.0	<1.0	<1.0	<1.0	<1.0	<1.0
Glycol	NEG	NEG	NEG	NEG	NEG	NEG	NEG	NEG	NEG	NEG	NEG	NEG
Soot%	0.1	0.1	0.1	0.1	0.1	0.1	0.1	0.1	0.1	0.1	0	0.1
Fluid Condition
TBN	12.3	7.3	5.05	3.985	2.85	12	16.8	10.8	9.28	8.11	6	7.76
Viscosity	8.8	9.1	9.4	9.56	10.6	9.2	9.4	10	10.4	11.6	12.6	13.2
Oxidation	5	15.3	22.5	24.1	31	45.3	0 (39.7)	12(51.7)	14.3(54.0)	21(60.7)	24.4(64.1)	27.1(66.8)

 

[RDY4WAR]

At 2 years and 33k miles, the TBN is still higher than some shelf oils have in virgin form. As you said, past the condemnation point so this oil change has run its course. That's good data.

 

[OVERKILL]

Wow, what a run! Impressive

 

[fantastic]

Fantastic Data! The oxidation & viscosity end of life looks like the 28,000 mile mark. That mileage also marks before you had to add any make-up oil too. You've done an excellent job on testing this HPL oil across your "fleet" on everyday vehicles that we'd normally only see on OTR trucks.

 

[Oliveoil2]

Great writeup!! And fantastic oil. Just too expensive for me. I’m happy with a $19 Jug of ST for 10k or a little more.

 

[Racer4]

I will have to say HPL oils are impressive, and you have documented proof. Thanks for sharing!

 

[dnewton3]

I disagree with most here; I'm going to be the voice of dissent.

- The Fe wear rate over the entire OCI is admirably low; approximately 1ppm/1k miles. In fact, the wear rate over the last 5 UOAs is very steady; only varying a few tenths up or down.
- The Al wear is increasingly, but not alarmingly so. Oddly it dropped shortly after the OCI, but then has a fairly steady increase. Overall, I think there was still some headroom here.
- The other wear metals were inconsequential.

As for the vis and ox, I do see they have a fairly substantial increase. But they don't seem to be affecting wear at the point of OCI. The TBN was strong enough to run further. I think there was life left in that lube in terms of wear control. Whether it was affecting fuel economy due to the vis increase, that's hard to prove. The MAIN purpose of lube is to control wear, and the lube was still very much doing its job well. I believe condemnation was premature because the wear rates were not showing any correlation to the vis and ox. Without correlation, there can be no causation.

If this next load goes as well, perhaps push it a tad further.

 

[wwillson]

I disagree with most here; I'm going to be the voice of dissent.

- The Fe wear rate over the entire OCI is admirably low; approximately 1ppm/1k miles. In fact, the wear rate over the last 5 UOAs is very steady; only varying a few tenths up or down.
- The Al wear is increasingly, but not alarmingly so. Oddly it dropped shortly after the OCI, but then has a fairly steady increase. Overall, I think there was still some headroom here.
- The other wear metals were inconsequential.

As for the vis and ox, I do see they have a fairly substantial increase. But they don't seem to be affecting wear at the point of OCI. The TBN was strong enough to run further. I think there was life left in that lube in terms of wear control. Whether it was affecting fuel economy due to the vis increase, that's hard to prove. The MAIN purpose of lube is to control wear, and the lube was still very much doing its job well. I believe condemnation was premature because the wear rates were not showing any correlation to the vis and ox. Without correlation, there can be no causation.

If this next load goes as well, perhaps push it a tad further.

I agree that wear is still very low, however another of my criteria is cleanliness. There is no varnish on the inside of the engine, but with oxidation being at 27 and enough oxidative thickening to bring the viscosity up 3 cSt, at some point we are going to get varnish. When? I don't know, but I know for sure I would not like to find out. Actually, I would like to find out, but not with my engine. If wear were my only criteria, I would let it run another 5k.

 

[himemsys]

I believe Oil Analyzers condemns oil when it reaches +17 oxidation over virgin. Interesting that the two labs differ here.

Where did the Boron come from on the last analysis? 16 is not a lot, but it's significantly above the previous 0-2 readings.

 

[sloinker]

2023 DURANGO SRT HELLCAT PREMIUM AWD​

Time to trade that old rattle-trap Durango in on something new. A real oil test bed!

https://www.dodge.com/bmo.durango.h...APA,PXJ,X6,ESD,DFS,DLE,Z6J,TWE,WHG,JB,UBN,2XY

 

[dnewton3]

I agree that wear is still very low, however another of my criteria is cleanliness. There is no varnish on the inside of the engine, but with oxidation being at 27 and enough oxidative thickening to bring the viscosity up 3 cSt, at some point we are going to get varnish. When? I don't know, but I know for sure I would not like to find out. Actually, I would like to find out, but not with my engine. If wear were my only criteria, I would let it run another 5k.

Fair enough; the concern is understood.

I counter with this, regarding oxidation and varnish ... your fear isn't unwarranted. I just think it's not as big a deal as you may fear.
I say that with the utmost respect; you're certainly willing to push the envelope further than most folks ever would do, even in their wildest nightmares.

Let's say some light varnishing does start to happen. So what? Given how well we've seen HPL clean other heavily varnished engines, are we to presume that this potentially newly formed varnish which would occur is somehow immune to the cleaning ability of a new load of HPL? I think we've seen plenty of examples that HPL can clean a LOT of stuff up; far worse than what might happen in 5k "more" miles. I believe that whatever light varnish which might occur could easily be "re-cleaned" upon the next HPL load. HPL has already proved it can clean your engine (we've seen the pictures!).

Worst case scenario: OCI extension leads to a little bit of varnish (with the net benefit of confirmation where the OCI limit is).
Reaction plan: Upon the next OCI, use more HPL to clean the residual, and you dial back the OCI a bit.

If we were to do a FMEA, the RPN rating would look like this:
RPN = Occurrence x Severity x Detection

O = The possibility of occurrence that a 5k mile OCI extension in your situation would generate varnish is moderate; probably rated at a "4".
S = The severity of varnish created over that same 5k miles is really low impact; probably a "2"
D = The possibility of varnish being undetectable; rated at a "3"
Your RPN value is a whopping 24 points for that previous run.

Most companies don't require mitigation plans until RPNs get over 100, and would be grateful to have RPNs so low as yours.
The "risk" of varnish causing irreparable, irreversible harm to your 3.6L engine is minute; really, really very small.
There is no real reason to use the UOA to guesstimate the oxidation effect when you can just look under the valve cover to see.

Wear rates not detrimentally affected? Run the OCI out.
Varnish not present? Run the OCI out.
Run the OCI until a change in output(s) actually happens, then look for the correlation of input(s) that likely caused that change.


***********************
And yes, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. As soon as "break in" is complete on my ES350, I'm changing to HPL and running the OCIs way out.
I will practice what I preach.

.

 

[wwillson]

You've done an excellent job on testing this HPL oil across your "fleet" on everyday vehicles that we'd normally only see on OTR trucks.

With only a 6.5 quart sump, most OTR trucks hold at least 40-60 quarts.

 

[AZjeff]

So you lease a car, put HPL and the best filter in for the first OC and never lift the hood again before you turn in it at 35k. You can say Wayne said it was perfectly fine to do it. Sweet

 

[wwillson]

Where did the Boron come from on the last analysis? 16 is not a lot, but it's significantly above the previous 0-2 readings.

Probably some residual in the ICP.

 

[racer12306]

Wow.

I appreciate the experiment. Not sure I have the stones to go that far but we’ll see.

 

[wwillson]

Fair enough; the concern is understood.

I counter with this, regarding oxidation and varnish ... your fear isn't unwarranted. I just think it's not as big a deal as you may fear.
I say that with the utmost respect; you're certainly willing to push the envelope further than most folks ever would do, even in their wildest nightmares.

Let's say some light varnishing does start to happen. So what? Given how well we've seen HPL clean other heavily varnished engines, are we to presume that this potentially newly formed varnish which would occur is somehow immune to the cleaning ability of a new load of HPL? I think we've seen plenty of examples that HPL can clean a LOT of stuff up; far worse than what might happen in 5k "more" miles. I believe that whatever light varnish which might occur could easily be "re-cleaned" upon the next HPL load. HPL has already proved it can clean your engine (we've seen the pictures!).

Worst case scenario: OCI extension leads to a little bit of varnish (with the net benefit of confirmation where the OCI limit is).
Reaction plan: Upon the next OCI, use more HPL to clean the residual, and you dial back the OCI a bit.

If we were to do a FMEA, the RPN would look like this:
RPN = Occurrence x Severity x Detection

O = The possibility of occurrence that a 5k mile OCI extension in your situation would generate varnish is moderate; probably rated at a "4".
S = The severity of varnish created over that same 5k miles is really low impact; probably a "2"
D = The possibility of varnish being undetectable; rated at a "3"
Your RPN value is a whopping 24 points for that previous run.

Most companies don't require mitigation plans until RPNs get over 100, and would be grateful to have RPNs so low as yours.
The "risk" of varnish causing irreparable, irreversible harm to your 3.6L engine is minute; really, really very small.
There is no real reason to use the UOA to guesstimate the oxidation effect when you can just look under the valve cover to see.

Wear rates not detrimentally affected? Run the OCI out.
Varnish not present? Run the OCI out.
Run the OCI until a change in output(s) actually happens, then look for the correlation of input(s) that likely caused that change.


***********************
And yes, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. As soon as "break in" is complete on my ES350, I'm changing to HPL and running the OCIs way out.
I will practice what I preach.

.

I will get the camera out tomorrow and take some under valve cover pictures. If all is perfectly clean, then I will think about it.

 

[fantastic]

With only a 6.5 quart sump, most OTR trucks hold at least 40-60 quarts.

That is quite a feat for that 6.5 quarts. Nice work!

I agree that wear is still very low, however another of my criteria is cleanliness. There is no varnish on the inside of the engine, but with oxidation being at 27 and enough oxidative thickening to bring the viscosity up 3 cSt, at some point we are going to get varnish. When? I don't know, but I know for sure I would not like to find out. Actually, I would like to find out, but not with my engine. If wear were my only criteria, I would let it run another 5k.

On top of that it may be that the oil was getting to a point of more easily burned off. Did you note when the oil started burning off like towards the end or consistently throughout? I would just think that the more oil is toasted it's going to be easier to burn off. I know other aspects can affect this like towing etc.

 

[wwillson]

On top of that it may be that the oil was getting to a point of more easily burned off. Did you note when the oil started burning off like towards the end or consistently throughout? I would just think that the more oil is toasted it's going to be easier to burn off. I know other aspects can affect this like towing etc.

The oil consumption was from a worn out PCV valve. After the valve was replace, the oil consumption returned to zero.

 

[fantastic]

The oil consumption was from a worn out PCV valve. After the valve was replace, the oil consumption returned to zero.

Good to hear.

 

[vinu_neuro]

Your 20wt virgin oil is now at 13cst. After you're done looking under the valve cover whether anything is starting to accumulate check the pistons too.

I've seen engines run on euro oils that have pretty clean valvetrain and timing system, but had rings severely clogged. Those were DI engines; if this is port injected maybe you'll get away with it. Either way, I see no advantage in buying a $$$ oil and then running it this hard. As far as I'm concerned if an oil has thickened out of grade it is done. It's not my money or engine though, so best of luck.

If you're planning to continue these extended runs it would be interesting to see the TAN to have the complete picture (after all controlling acids is the mission). TBN isn't really of much value in these long oci's.