Dodge Durango 3.6L - HPL CK-4 5w-20 - 18,700 miles on oil - 158,700 total

wwillson

wwillson

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This sample was pulled from my 2014 Dodge Durango with a total of 158,700 miles and 18,700 miles on the oil. The oil is HPL's 5w-20 CK-4 based formula and has been run since Feb 9, 2022, about 16.5 months. The lab is Wearcheck. I believe we are finally at the point that the cleaning is subsiding after running HPL's high ester and AN oil for the last 48,000 miles. The usage on this 6,700 mile run was >95% high speed driving down the interstate. There was 1/4 quart (1 cup) of makeup oil. This is the equivalent of three oil samples, so the oil consumption remains at zero. Most of the fuel used for this 6,700 mile run was E-85.

The previous UOA thread is here:

Dodge Durango 3.6L - HPL CK-4 5w-20 - 12,000 miles on oil - 152,000 total

This sample was pulled from my 2014 Dodge Durango with a total of 152,000 miles and 12,000 miles on the oil. The oil is HPL's 5w-20 CK-4 based formula and has been run since Feb 9, 2022, about 14.5 months. The lab is Wearcheck. There is still cleaning taking place. This is the filter thread I...
bobistheoilguy.com

This is the filter thread I posted with the filter that was changed when this oil sample was taken:

Dodge Durango 3.6L - second run of HPL 5w-20 - 18,700 miles on oil - filter pictures at 6,700 mile change interval run from 152,000-158,700 miles

The first filter from this second run of HPL HDEO 5w-20 is here: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/dodge-durango-3-6l-second-run-of-hpl-5w-20-5-000-miles-on-oil-filter-pictures-at-5-000-mile-change-interval.359054/ The second filter from this second run of HPL HDEO 5w-20 is here...
bobistheoilguy.com

I have normalized the oxidation by taking the absolute value and subtracting the base oxidation value of virgin oil. Esters are high in carbonyl groups, ASTM D7414 will show high oxidation even in virgin oil. The corrected oxidation is 21, which is still below Wearcheck's suggested condemnation limit of 25.

The TBN, wear, and contaminants all look good. Oxidative thickening is taking place as the viscosity has increase by about 19%. The viscosity rose from 9.4 to 11.6. You can see that the VIIs in this oil don't shear, so oxidative thickening is not masked at all by VII shear. The viscosity increase is not causing wear, which is evident by all the metal numbers, which frankly are incredibly low. Given that the TBN is still 8.11 and the Fe only increase by 2 ppm, which is an outstanding 0.3 ppm/1k miles! This oil is still serviceable and will be run for another 5,000 miles.

A thought: Is the viscosity increase cause by oxidation useful viscosity? Said another way, will the higher viscosity cause by oxidative thickening increase the oil's hydrodynamic lubrication?

Sample Informationstart first runend first runflush old formulastart second run
Sample DateFeb 2020Dec 2020March 2021August 2021October 2021February 2022March 1, 2022September 5, 2022April 19, 2023June 13, 2023
Machine Age miles116,000122,200127,420132,679137,615140,000141,500147,000152,000158,700
Oil Age miles5,00011,20015,82021,07926,0152,5001,5007,00012,00018,700
Filter Age miles5,00011,20015,82021,0794,9362,5001,5002,0005,0006,700
Oil Changednonononoyesyesyesnonono
Filter Changednononoyesyesyesyesyesyesyes
BrandHPLHPLHPLHPLHPLHPLHPLHPLHPLHPL
Viscosity5w-20 HDEO5w-20 HDEO5w-20 HDEO5w-20 HDEO5w-20 HDEO5w-20 HDEO5w-20 HDEO5w-20 HDEO5w-20 HDEO5w-20 HDEO
new formulanew formula
Wear Metals
Iron51321426219691517
ChromiumTD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]2		2TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
Nickel000TD]
[TD]0		0TD]
[TD]0		0TD]
TitaniumTD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]2		TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]0		TD]
SilverTD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]0		TD]
[TD]0		0
Aluminum3315542415
Lead00TD]
[TD]1		TD]
[TD]1		1000
Copper3101639666431657269
Tin0TD]
[TD]0		TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]0		00
Antimony00TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]-		-----
VanandiumTD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]0		TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]0		TD]
[TD]0		0
Cadmium000TD]
[TD]not reported		00000
Additives
Boron18181424323202200
Barium3010200000
Molybdenum523521500518545535492548600590
ManganeseTD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]2		31TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
Magnesium4624464304674611078109198111581059
Calcium3422323732033379356228122431245827672645
Phosphorus78877776075480211371094102410951041
Zinc94892488494998813261176127114111347
Contaminants
Silicon11111525331712131817
Sodium4458840354
Potassium1TD]
[TD]2		3410223
Fuel %TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
[TD]TD]
GlycolNEGNEGNEGNEGNEGNEGNEGNEGNEGNEG
Soot%0.10.10.10.10.10.10.10.10.10.1
Fluid Condition
TBN12.37.35.053.9852.851216.810.89.288.11
Viscosity8.89.19.49.5610.69.29.41010.411.6
Oxidation515.322.524.13145.30 (39.7)12(51.7)14.3(54.0)21(60.7)
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
 
Last edited:
Overall wear rates appear to be in order here! Silicon has come down too. I like how you added the actual Oxidation value 60.7 but did the math & displayed the actual "Rise" of 21. Visc is on the very thick side that's for sure but doesn't seem to be affecting iron wear at least.

Key Notes:

I will point out that you did get an additional 7,315 miles out of the previous version (Oct 2021) of this oil without the same rise in viscosity. It also appears that the New version starts out with a thicker viscosity though so this may be a moot point. However, We'll wait to see how it works over time not just this sample.

Other than say less fuel economy from the thicker oil. Is the Engine Temperature of this Durango all within range that you've noticed with this last oil run?

Do we know what to do with the fact that Copper quadrupled in the same mileage 16 (March 21) - 69 (June 13th)? It might be getting close to the limits of what the oil can safely hold onto at 69ppm?

I would add that with the Viscosity on the rise & Oxidation almost at the condemnation point that this oil may be nearing its run life. Obviously, sample again & make your decision.
 
Last edited:
fantastic said:
Is the Engine Temperature of this Durango all within range that you've noticed with this last oil run?
Click to expand...
Yes, the coolant temperature for this run is normal, as the thermostat was replaced. The last run had to deal with low coolant and oil temperatures:

Dodge Durango 3.6L P0128 code

2014 Durango 3.6L with 130,000 miles threw a P0128, which is "coolant did not reach operating temperature quickly enough". I believe the cause is almost certainly a faulty thermostat, which I'm going to replace. I haven't researched thermostats for 20 years, so at this point I know nothing...
bobistheoilguy.com

The normal oil temperature now is 192°F-210°F, I find the oil temps are mostly dependent on ambient air temperature and engine RPMs (friction).
 
Last edited:
fantastic said:
I would add that with the Viscosity on the rise & Oxidation almost at the condemnation point that this oil may be nearing its run life. Obviously, sample again & make your decision.
Click to expand...
I already have another 2200 miles on the oil and will sample again at +5000 miles. I believe the next sample will be the end of the service life of this oil. We should know in about a month.
 
All oxidation values in the table are corrected. If you compare miles and oxidation values from the first run and the second run, the oxidation rate is similar. The final oxidation value in the first run was 33, which is 8 points higher than Wearchecks suggested condemnation value. However, I don't think it's fair to use the first run oxidation value (I could be wrong), because there was so much cleaning taking place and the operator of the Durango was negligent in changing the filter. We probably aren't comparing apples to oranges, until the next run because of the high cleaning rate of the first run. All theory, so if you have other ideas, feel free to jump in.
 
wwillson said:
All oxidation values in the table are corrected. If you compare miles and oxidation values from the first run and the second run, the oxidation rate is similar. The final oxidation value in the first run was 33, which is 8 points higher than Wearchecks suggested condemnation value. However, I don't think it's fair to use the first run oxidation value (I could be wrong), because there was so much cleaning taking place and the operator of the Durango was negligent in changing the filter. We probably aren't comparing apples to oranges, until the next run because of the high cleaning rate of the first run. All theory, so if you have other ideas, feel free to jump in.
Click to expand...
Before the New formula I believe your optimal ODI was the March 21' (before wear rates increased quite a bit)

When comparing March 21' Iron & Oxidation values alone You had:

  • 15,820 Miles
  • 1.32743362832 PPM/1k
  • 22.5 Oxidation Value

New Formula:

  • 18,700 Miles
  • 0.909090909091 PPM/1k
  • 21 Oxidation Value

Subtracting 31 starting value on Copper-69 Means your copper is actually only at 38 & did NOT quadruple like I stated in my earlier post. MY MISTAKE! Here are some new Copper numbers.

  • 44.56 PPM/1k Oct 21' (Old Formula)
  • 38.00 PPM/1k Jun 23' (New Formula)

Verdict:

So, after mulling over your data some more. You are getting less wear on Iron, Copper, & better oxidation stability for longer duration. This is all great news! However, the Oxidation is still something that I'm going to be looking at closely next test.
 
Last edited:
I wonder if the Cu is colloidal metals from a chemical reaction? Not unlike when oils such as Amsoil were run in Dmax engines; some of the lube additives reacted with the oil cooler (liquid to liquid stacked copper plate cooler). It was not harmful, but made understanding the Cu counts more difficult.

As for the rest, well ... outstanding! Run that OCI out!
 
wwillson said:
Yes, the coolant temperature for this run is normal, as the thermostat was replaced. The last run had to deal with low coolant and oil temperatures:
Click to expand...
Oxidation occurs more quickly at high oil temperatures, which might be why you didn't see as much oxidative thickening on the last run.

wwillson said:
A thought: Is the viscosity increase cause by oxidation useful viscosity? Said another way, will the higher viscosity cause by oxidative thickening increase the oil's hydrodynamic lubrication?
Click to expand...
Good question. I'd assume that as the base oil oxidizes and its kinematic viscosity goes up, that the dynamic viscosity at high shear would go up as well, so it would have an affect fuel economy and wear.

FYI, the values for additives from the latest UOA are exactly the same as those in the UOA from September, which I assume isn't intentional.
 
twX said:
FYI, the values for additives from the latest UOA are exactly the same as those in the UOA from September, which I assume isn't intentional.
Click to expand...
Thank you for catching that. Too much staring at columns on the UAO report. The numbers are corrected and triple checked now.
 
wwillson said:
I already have another 2200 miles on the oil and will sample again at +5000 miles. I believe the next sample will be the end of the service life of this oil. We should know in about a month.
Click to expand...
What measure and number will you use to condemn it as end of life? Viscosity rise? Oxidation? Iron level? Or the copper? TBN is amazing on this oil, so it won't be that!
 
spasm3 said:
What measure and number will you use to condemn it as end of life? Viscosity rise? Oxidation? Iron level? Or the copper? TBN is amazing on this oil, so it won't be that!
Click to expand...
The established trend shows that the condemnation will likely be viscosity increase caused by oxidative thickening. Wear is almost non existent.
 
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