RLI Bio-Syn 0w-30 - 7,510 miles -'06 Camry 2AZ-FE
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Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
Built_Well - IMHO it is wise to be very cautious when endeavouring to evaluate any lubricant's performance from one single pass "simple" UOA
So BW (and others) when choosing an oil should make a...commitment for at least 2 consecutive OCIs (with the same oil) and if planning on doing a UOA then for peace of mind don't do it for the first run
.
Hi,
Built_Well - IMHO it is wise to be very cautious when endeavouring to evaluate any lubricant's performance from one single pass "simple" UOA
So BW (and others) when choosing an oil should make a...commitment for at least 2 consecutive OCIs (with the same oil) and if planning on doing a UOA then for peace of mind don't do it for the first run
Hi,
21Rouge - Why? Use the first UOA as the commencement point for Trending!
21Rouge - Why? Use the first UOA as the commencement point for Trending!
Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
I'd suggest the RLI 5W30 instead of the 0W30 in your climate. You don't need a 0W oil in Missouri, and the 5W30 will be an oil with lower volatility and lower deposit formation
Thanks RI_RS4 and Doug_Hillary for your thought-provoking posts.
Do you think the engine experienced some deposit formation with the high TAN to TBN ratio of 8.5 to 2.0 and the long 7,510-mile, 9.75-month run?
If so, would a short 3,000-mile run of my second fill of Bio-Syn 0w-30 clean it up, or would you recommend some other oil for the cleaning? I wouldn't want to use Auto-RX yet.
I'd suggest the RLI 5W30 instead of the 0W30 in your climate. You don't need a 0W oil in Missouri, and the 5W30 will be an oil with lower volatility and lower deposit formation
Thanks RI_RS4 and Doug_Hillary for your thought-provoking posts.
Do you think the engine experienced some deposit formation with the high TAN to TBN ratio of 8.5 to 2.0 and the long 7,510-mile, 9.75-month run?
If so, would a short 3,000-mile run of my second fill of Bio-Syn 0w-30 clean it up, or would you recommend some other oil for the cleaning? I wouldn't want to use Auto-RX yet.
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If we could have 5 or 10 minutes more to edit posts, it would be great. The short editing time limit prevented me from adding:
This question may sound like it comes from left field, but I am new to UOA analysis.
This question may sound like it comes from left field, but I am new to UOA analysis.
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1) The TAN is HIGH VOA. The TBN is in the tank, but it doesn't seem to be doing anything.
2) Pb (and other indicators) is a "blip" on the radar. It's still well in the noise level of any metal. The visc is not out of whack so you can be reasonably confident that this is chemical/reactive in nature. That is, some "scrubbing" (and minor, at that) in some disruptive manner to previously formed AW films. This stuff happens at times. The more common the oil, the less common the occurrence. Red Line can do it in spades on some engines if they've got enough mileage. Yours has not so much mileage.
3) Particle counts. CALL BLACKSTONE!! They left the data out. They will tell you and apologize for the inconvenience.
4) As Aristotle said, "One swallow does not the summer make".
5) You used this oil 180% of the time base and 150% of the mileage of PP.
2) Pb (and other indicators) is a "blip" on the radar. It's still well in the noise level of any metal. The visc is not out of whack so you can be reasonably confident that this is chemical/reactive in nature. That is, some "scrubbing" (and minor, at that) in some disruptive manner to previously formed AW films. This stuff happens at times. The more common the oil, the less common the occurrence. Red Line can do it in spades on some engines if they've got enough mileage. Yours has not so much mileage.
3) Particle counts. CALL BLACKSTONE!! They left the data out. They will tell you and apologize for the inconvenience.
4) As Aristotle said, "One swallow does not the summer make".
5) You used this oil 180% of the time base and 150% of the mileage of PP.
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
21Rouge - Why? Use the first UOA as the commencement point for Trending!
Because for many the higher levels of wear metals that can be seen in the first UOA can scare people off from even continuing with a second OCI with said oil.
Hi,
21Rouge - Why? Use the first UOA as the commencement point for Trending!
Because for many the higher levels of wear metals that can be seen in the first UOA can scare people off from even continuing with a second OCI with said oil.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
4) As Aristotle said, "One swallow does not the summer make".
I am impressed Gary. Expertise with oil and now Greek philosophers...you are a true renaissance man
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
5) You used this oil 180% of the time base and 150% of the mileage of PP.
That's for sure. There are many wear #s with the RLI that are quite comparable if not proportionately better than with PP.
4) As Aristotle said, "One swallow does not the summer make".
I am impressed Gary. Expertise with oil and now Greek philosophers...you are a true renaissance man
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
5) You used this oil 180% of the time base and 150% of the mileage of PP.
That's for sure. There are many wear #s with the RLI that are quite comparable if not proportionately better than with PP.
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Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
2)That is, some "scrubbing" (and minor, at that) in some disruptive manner to previously formed AW films. This stuff happens at times.
Makes me wonder what how a UOA would look for RLI on a car with very few miles...less scrubbing that might occur?
2)That is, some "scrubbing" (and minor, at that) in some disruptive manner to previously formed AW films. This stuff happens at times.
Makes me wonder what how a UOA would look for RLI on a car with very few miles...less scrubbing that might occur?
Why would anyone dump a good running oil bassed on a UOA which is NOT a comparitive wear indicator - and the OP is fixating on TBN tan ratios for why? This is why I dont like UOA on a good running engine - someone will dump a great-running and expensive oil ONLY due to misinterpretaion and misuse of UOA data.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Why would anyone dump a good running oil bassed on a UOA which is NOT a comparitive wear indicator - and the OP is fixating on TBN tan ratios for why?
I don't want to speak on behalf of Built_Well but I think he might have in the back of his mind that the specific bottles/jugs of oil he used may not be up to spec. (i.e quality control); Renewable is such a boutique oil, very unique in many ways; a small company.
This is an example where having a FUMOTO would be helpful to BWell. That is take a sample for Blackstone w/o dumping the RLI fill. After the analysis he can then decide to dump it and fill with another oil...say PP and then he doesnt waste money on a short run of RLI...as may happen now.
Why would anyone dump a good running oil bassed on a UOA which is NOT a comparitive wear indicator - and the OP is fixating on TBN tan ratios for why?
I don't want to speak on behalf of Built_Well but I think he might have in the back of his mind that the specific bottles/jugs of oil he used may not be up to spec. (i.e quality control); Renewable is such a boutique oil, very unique in many ways; a small company.
This is an example where having a FUMOTO would be helpful to BWell. That is take a sample for Blackstone w/o dumping the RLI fill. After the analysis he can then decide to dump it and fill with another oil...say PP and then he doesnt waste money on a short run of RLI...as may happen now.
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Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
4) As Aristotle said, "One swallow does not the summer make".
I am impressed Gary. Expertise with oil and now Greek philosophers...you are a true renaissance man
Not really. I just latch on to really neat catchy one liners. It does give the illusion of sophistication.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
4) As Aristotle said, "One swallow does not the summer make".
I am impressed Gary. Expertise with oil and now Greek philosophers...you are a true renaissance man
Not really. I just latch on to really neat catchy one liners. It does give the illusion of sophistication.
tdi-rick
No, there is no Lead in RLI formulations.
No, there is no Lead in RLI formulations.
Originally Posted By: FZ1
No,man. BW saw better and accepable performance from the PP at a much better price. He's making the right call. I ain't runnin' no faux oil in my car! I want the real thang!
FZ, there is not enough data on either run of oil to make an informed decision. The engine is not even out of the break-in regime yet.
RLI is real oil. It is a blend of high quality PAO and HOBS oil.
No,man. BW saw better and accepable performance from the PP at a much better price. He's making the right call. I ain't runnin' no faux oil in my car! I want the real thang!
FZ, there is not enough data on either run of oil to make an informed decision. The engine is not even out of the break-in regime yet.
RLI is real oil. It is a blend of high quality PAO and HOBS oil.
Originally Posted By: Built_Well
Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
I'd suggest the RLI 5W30 instead of the 0W30 in your climate. You don't need a 0W oil in Missouri, and the 5W30 will be an oil with lower volatility and lower deposit formation
Thanks RI_RS4 and Doug_Hillary for your thought-provoking posts.
Do you think the engine experienced some deposit formation with the high TAN to TBN ratio of 8.5 to 2.0 and the long 7,510-mile, 9.75-month run?
If so, would a short 3,000-mile run of my second fill of Bio-Syn 0w-30 clean it up, or would you recommend some other oil for the cleaning? I wouldn't want to use Auto-RX yet.
Built-Well, you do not need to use Auto-Rx yet. The cleaning we see is the result of highly polar ester molecules removing the previous anti-wear layers on the bearing surfaces. This process will occur until the new additives have a chance to deposit on the surfaces, and has most likely been completed. At this point, your second run of RLI should be good to go. I'd wait and perform a sample UOA at 5K miles. Based on that, make a determination whether to dump the oil or to run it longer. If you want a professional opinion, request a Dyson reading on your Blackstone analysis.
Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
I'd suggest the RLI 5W30 instead of the 0W30 in your climate. You don't need a 0W oil in Missouri, and the 5W30 will be an oil with lower volatility and lower deposit formation
Thanks RI_RS4 and Doug_Hillary for your thought-provoking posts.
Do you think the engine experienced some deposit formation with the high TAN to TBN ratio of 8.5 to 2.0 and the long 7,510-mile, 9.75-month run?
If so, would a short 3,000-mile run of my second fill of Bio-Syn 0w-30 clean it up, or would you recommend some other oil for the cleaning? I wouldn't want to use Auto-RX yet.
Built-Well, you do not need to use Auto-Rx yet. The cleaning we see is the result of highly polar ester molecules removing the previous anti-wear layers on the bearing surfaces. This process will occur until the new additives have a chance to deposit on the surfaces, and has most likely been completed. At this point, your second run of RLI should be good to go. I'd wait and perform a sample UOA at 5K miles. Based on that, make a determination whether to dump the oil or to run it longer. If you want a professional opinion, request a Dyson reading on your Blackstone analysis.
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Several people have suggested that the high lead (17 ppm) in this Bio-Syn UOA (compared to a mere 3 ppm of lead in my Pennzoil Platinum UOA, with 2 ppm being the universal average) may be a result of Bio-Syn cleaning off Anti-Wear additives from the engine's surfaces that have accumulated over the 3.5 years the car has been alive. Apparently, some oils have lead in them as an Anti-Wear additive, but these lead-containing oils seem to be rare.
In my signature, you'll see that the previous oils I've used have been Pennzoil Platinum, Mobil 1 5w-30, and Valvoline dino (the Valvoline was a dealer bulk supply before I started doing my own oil changes. I think I only used the Valvoline bulk once--no more than twice).
I've been looking at many Virgin Oil Analyses on this site, and I don't understand from which of my previous oils the lead could have come from. PP, M1 5w-30, Valvoline dino, and RLI Bio-Syn 0w-30 don't appear to use lead as an anti-wear additive.
I can only conclude, then, that the high lead came from the bearings, possibly as a result of the high 8.5 TAN to 2.0 TBN ratio. Iron, by the way, was also higher than I would have expected, though not extreme like the lead.
Others have noted that ester oils like BioSyn start off with a high TAN, and that's true, but the Virgin Oil Analyses I've seen usually show a virgin TAN for BioSyn between roughly 2 and 3. My UOA's TAN was 8.5.
Can anyone point out a UOA of Bio-Syn on this site that had a TAN over 6?
In my signature, you'll see that the previous oils I've used have been Pennzoil Platinum, Mobil 1 5w-30, and Valvoline dino (the Valvoline was a dealer bulk supply before I started doing my own oil changes. I think I only used the Valvoline bulk once--no more than twice).
I've been looking at many Virgin Oil Analyses on this site, and I don't understand from which of my previous oils the lead could have come from. PP, M1 5w-30, Valvoline dino, and RLI Bio-Syn 0w-30 don't appear to use lead as an anti-wear additive.
I can only conclude, then, that the high lead came from the bearings, possibly as a result of the high 8.5 TAN to 2.0 TBN ratio. Iron, by the way, was also higher than I would have expected, though not extreme like the lead.
Others have noted that ester oils like BioSyn start off with a high TAN, and that's true, but the Virgin Oil Analyses I've seen usually show a virgin TAN for BioSyn between roughly 2 and 3. My UOA's TAN was 8.5.
Can anyone point out a UOA of Bio-Syn on this site that had a TAN over 6?
Originally Posted By: Built_Well
may be a result of Bio-Syn cleaning off Anti-Wear additives from the engine's surfaces that have accumulated over the 3.5 years the car has been alive.
That's not exactly what I'm saying. I doubt any oils you have used before actually contain any lead. What I think is when an active oil chemically peels off (just using these terms) the previous AW layer (ZDDP, Mo, S, and other complexes) from Pb containing bearing surfaces - Pb comes with, and with an oil containing weak organic acids and chelating agents (esters, organic acids) this Pb is now in solution (not really harmful) and easily picked up in a low cost UOA.
may be a result of Bio-Syn cleaning off Anti-Wear additives from the engine's surfaces that have accumulated over the 3.5 years the car has been alive.
That's not exactly what I'm saying. I doubt any oils you have used before actually contain any lead. What I think is when an active oil chemically peels off (just using these terms) the previous AW layer (ZDDP, Mo, S, and other complexes) from Pb containing bearing surfaces - Pb comes with, and with an oil containing weak organic acids and chelating agents (esters, organic acids) this Pb is now in solution (not really harmful) and easily picked up in a low cost UOA.
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Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
21Rouge - Why? Use the first UOA as the commencement point for Trending!
Because for many the higher levels of wear metals that can be seen in the first UOA can scare people off from even continuing with a second OCI with said oil.
That's exactly what Doug is getting at. This is a great point to start a trend. Since it will likely trend DOWN.
It is the fact that people look at the numbers and get SCARED that is the PROBLEM, not the numbers themselves.
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
21Rouge - Why? Use the first UOA as the commencement point for Trending!
Because for many the higher levels of wear metals that can be seen in the first UOA can scare people off from even continuing with a second OCI with said oil.
That's exactly what Doug is getting at. This is a great point to start a trend. Since it will likely trend DOWN.
It is the fact that people look at the numbers and get SCARED that is the PROBLEM, not the numbers themselves.
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