Regulators slam Toyota over 'no defect' claim

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U.S. auto safety agency rebukes an assertion that it found nothing wrong in vehicles involved in a massive recall over incidents of unintended acceleration.

By Ken Bensinger and Ralph Vartabedian

November 5, 2009

Federal safety regulators have sharply rebuked Toyota Motor Corp. for issuing "inaccurate and misleading" statements asserting that no defect exists in the 3.8 million vehicles it recalled after a Lexus sedan accelerated out of control in San Diego County, killing four people.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration issued a statement Wednesday that the recalled Toyota and Lexus vehicles do have an "underlying defect" that involves the design of the accelerator pedal and the driver's foot well.

Toyota officials have said they believe the Aug. 28 accident, and other uncontrolled-acceleration incidents across the country, occurred after the gas pedal became entrapped in an improperly installed floor mat.

In formal recall notices being mailed out this week, Toyota asks customers to remove the driver's-side mats. Separately, the company issued a statement Monday saying its recall letter "confirms that no defect exists in vehicles in which the driver's floor mat is compatible with the vehicle and properly secured."

Toyota also posted a video statement disputing news reports that unintended acceleration may be related to other factors, such as electronic throttle control systems.

That prompted the NHTSA to issue a clarification.

"Safety is the No. 1 priority for NHTSA and this is why officials are working with Toyota to find the right way to fix this very dangerous problem," the statement said. "This matter is not closed until Toyota has effectively addressed the defect by providing a suitable vehicle-based solution."

The statement is an unusual public upbraiding of an automaker by the regulatory agency, according to auto safety experts, and threatens to dent Toyota's credibility just as it seeks to assure customers that its vehicles are safe.

"This is particularly public at a particularly difficult time for Toyota," said Sean Kane, chief of Safety Research & Strategies, a Rehoboth, Mass., consulting firm. "Toyota was trying to say it has a clean bill of health from NHTSA, when it does not."

In response to the NHTSA statement, Toyota said it was "never our intention to mislead or provide inaccurate information." The statement added that it was still developing "vehicle-based" remedies to prevent unintended acceleration events, in which motorists say their vehicles suddenly speed out of control.

Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons suggested last month that these remedies might include changes in the placement of the pedals, or a change to the engine control software in the vehicles' onboard computers. On Wednesday, however, Lyons declined to comment on any specific fixes.

Toyota announced the voluntary recall Sept. 29, one month after a 2009 Lexus ES 350 sped out of control on a suburban San Diego highway, killing California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor, his wife, Cleofe Lastrella, their daughter Mahala and Chris Lastrella, Cleofe's brother.

The incident drew widespread public attention because the final moments were captured as Chris Lastrella made a frantic 911 call describing Saylor's futile efforts to stop the car, which crashed through an embankment and burned. The accident and recall prompted Toyota President Akio Toyoda to publicly express remorse.

The recall affects the 2007-2010 model year Toyota Camry, the 2004-2009 Toyota Prius, the 2005-2010 Toyota Avalon, the 2005-2010 Tacoma, the 2007-2010 Toyota Tundra, the 2007-2010 Lexus ES 350 and the 2006-2010 Lexus IS 250 and IS 350.

The NHTSA has investigated allegations of unwanted acceleration in Toyota vehicles eight times since 2003. Two probes, involving carpet panels in 2004 Toyota Sienna minivans, and floor mats in 2007 Lexus ES350 and 2007 Toyota Camry sedans, led to small recalls.

The six other investigations were closed by the agency with no finding of a defect. In those investigations, however, the NHTSA did find that the Toyota braking system could lose most of its power and effectiveness when the throttle is fully opened and that other aspects of vehicle design, including using push-button ignitions, could add risk in sudden-acceleration events.

In the suburban San Diego case, the NHTSA found that the floor mat in the sedan -- a loaner car from an El Cajon dealer -- was an all-weather mat intended for use in a Lexus sport utility vehicle. It also found that the design of the Lexus accelerator pedal may have enhanced the risk of its being obstructed by a floor mat.

Toyota has continued to focus on the floor mats alone.

On Monday in a video statement posted online, Toyota Senior Vice President Bob Daly addressed recent suggestions "that there may be other causes of unintended acceleration," including problems with engine control systems, brake systems or electromagnetic interference.

"There is no evidence to support those theories," Daly said. "The question of unintended acceleration involving Toyota and Lexus vehicles has been repeatedly and thoroughly investigated by NHTSA, without any finding of defect other than the risk from an unsecured or incompatible driver's floor mat."

The response from federal regulators came as no surprise to Joan Claybrook, an auto safety activist who formerly headed the NHTSA.

"The agency never says there is no defect. . . . New information can come to light that there is a defect," Claybrook said.

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ralph.vartabedian@
 
Alright, let's recall every single car made, because a floor matt with sufficient thickness may cause the acceleration pedal to become 'jammed' and thus cuase "uncontrollable" (turn off the car or put it in neutral) acceleration.
 
Shut the car off? Put it in N? Both feet on the brakes? I could see a short distance parking lot incident where you have no time to react, but with enough time to make a phone call? I guess there was no APP for that.
- My elderly mother had an unintended accel accident in her 89 Caddy. I dorve it afterwards, and confirmed it IS a idle steppermotor control issue loosing its reference - just what you need is 88-92 M.Y. Caddys with this problem in FLA. I ended up removing the dang thing (after trying the complex re-programming and initial ref position multiple times to NO avail) and setting the idle to a fixed and managable 800 rpm.
 
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Originally Posted By: pcfxer
Alright, let's recall every single car made, because a floor matt with sufficient thickness may cause the acceleration pedal to become 'jammed' and thus cuase "uncontrollable" (turn off the car or put it in neutral) acceleration.

Silly and agreed. The motorist has NO responsibilty to keep their car safe? Come on! Folks treat their auto responsibiliies with a cavalier attidude. I see unsafe, underinflated tires on SUV ALL the time on my commute. My Yaris and Foz all have floor mat pins to prevent the mat riding over or under the go pedal - I would assume Lexi do also. Sad to say, We see Darwinism at its best with HomoSapiens in automobiles. My sincere condolences to the affected Family.
 
Quote:
In the suburban San Diego case, the NHTSA found that the floor mat in the sedan -- a loaner car from an El Cajon dealer -- was an all-weather mat intended for use in a Lexus sport utility vehicle. It also found that the design of the Lexus accelerator pedal may have enhanced the risk of its being obstructed by a floor mat.


Dealer has a SERIOUS problem!
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But a "defect" from Toyota? I really don't think so on this matter.

That's ok, the government will put on a NASCAR size sticker telling us what the manual has already stated but owners don't read.
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I'm disappointed in a CHP officer not knowing to put the car into neutral if the car starts to run away....

Sad for the accident, but Toyota or it's dealer does not own all responsible actions here...

Bill
 
"The agency never says there is no defect. . . . New information can come to light that there is a defect,"

What else would the government say? Does NHTSA ever say..."sorry we were wrong? BUT, they should thoroughly check out the ETC systems on these cars. This could be a software glitch, bad ETC chip, etc. It is very possible that there could be 100 or 500 or 1000 bad ETC systems out there that just malfunction and go haywire. Very possible. But how do you confirm it? With several million of these vehicles on the road how could you ever find a bad one other than sheer luck.
 
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NHTSA is saying that "no defect" was not what they said. That's what Toyota claimed, but Toyota is trying to fix it so there must be some defect.

The guy wasn't familiar with the new ignition system. Quiet unfortunate. He should've figured out how to turn the car off before driving away. I mean he's not going to leave the car on once he gets home.

Calling 911 is kind of strange. Nobody's going to be able to help you in time if you're at 120 mph. Cops could set some spikes but you've already traveled 10 miles in 5 minutes.
 
The car I have is in the group. The floor mats have holes that go over hooks just in front of the seat. There isn't any way the mat can go forward and jam the pedal. I even have extra loose mats over the factory mats and don't see any cause for concern. Older models have the same system and aren't on the recall list. There was a case in CA where the owner of an 07 camry sped and killed someone in another car. They claimed it was the mats, and they put it in neutral, turned the ignition off, and used the brakes. Still the car kept speeding. That's a lot of defects in an 07 to happen all at once. Of course the driver is facing manslaughter charges, maybe that has just a bit of influence on the claims.
 
Originally Posted By: Newtonville
The car I have is in the group. The floor mats have holes that go over hooks just in front of the seat. There isn't any way the mat can go forward and jam the pedal. I even have extra loose mats over the factory mats and don't see any cause for concern. Older models have the same system and aren't on the recall list. There was a case in CA where the owner of an 07 camry sped and killed someone in another car. They claimed it was the mats, and they put it in neutral, turned the ignition off, and used the brakes. Still the car kept speeding. That's a lot of defects in an 07 to happen all at once. Of course the driver is facing manslaughter charges, maybe that has just a bit of influence on the claims.


Go ahead and install the WRONG mats like the dealer did and you MAY have a issue.
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But I agree with Toyota, they don't have a design issue here. My work truck (2007 Tundra) has the hook that holds the mats in place VERY well. So does my 2005 Corolla.

Right now, my truck has had its mats taken out since the notice to protect me...
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Originally Posted By: prax

The guy wasn't familiar with the new ignition system. Quiet unfortunate. He should've figured out how to turn the car off before driving away. I mean he's not going to leave the car on once he gets home.



I have a 08 ES350. When the car is in park you just push the button and it shuts off. When it's in D and moving you have to hold the button in for 3 seconds to shut it off. Very confusing and NOBODY from Lexus has ever instructed my wife or me on how to do an emergency shut down. Which is really the problem. I'll bet the guy was pushing the button like crazy but never held it in for 3 seconds. Lexus should send a letter to all owners with instructions on this shutdown procedure with a response card indicating you have read the letter and understand it. Then for all of the response cards that don't come back they should have the dealers contact each individual personally to instruct them. OR have a free oil change and come in so we can instruct you on saftey features. Etc.
 
I am going to velcro my driver side mats in on the ES350. So it will have the hooks AND a big velcro patch holding the driver mat in place.
 
Good point with the push to start feature in an emergency situation. Many speculate, but nobody knows for sure from what I have read if the victim tried to place the car in neural, or if he did and it would not work.

We all are monday morning quarter backs if we claim "he shoud have put it in neutral" blah blah. We were not there. We will never know all of the issues that let up to the accident. I will venture to say a good majority of you on this board would respond vastly different in an emergency situation than you think you might. When was the last time any of you were even presented with one??? I hope none of you ever find yourselves in this situation. But until then, you never know.
 
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I have had that happen on a 1991 Plymouth Laser, 1986 Toyota 4Runner,1985 Ford Tempo,2001 Dodge Dakota and almost any vehicles I have driven with unsecured floor matt's. I have size 13 feet which means all floor mats even with long pointy barps on the bottom end up bunched up under or on top of the pedals. This means I either cannot use the breaks and gas and clutch pedals at all or they stick in position. So since this ahs been a long time problem for me since child hood I periodically check them and pull them back while driving with my heel. Now my 2003 Camry has the coolest anchors I have ever seen and not once since I have owned the car has it ever had a problem because the floor mat cannot move or bunch up! The worst ones though are the foul weather ones that have the deep groves but are not hard molded to conform to the floor pan. Toyota and LExus used to try and push these at the point of sale in the Finance office at the same time they where pushing Scotch Guard and Rust Proofing.Unlike the OEM floor mats these did not have the anchor and they where made from a soft floppy rubber material. I always told my clients to not get them but to purchase the after market ones that are molded to the floor pans contour and semi-rigid.

My wifes car does not have floor matt's. She used to use the ones out of my 4Runner but when we sold the 4Runner the floor mats went with it.Her car is the only car I have driven that has not had a problem and that is because she has no floor mats. If properly anchored though no mat can move or cause an issue so it really is a simple fix add achor.
 
I've been saying this since I heard of the problem. Using wrong floor mats is not the root cause, the accelerator pedal design is and Toyota got cought chasing the cheap fix, wheter it's the wrong time or the right time for Toyota's PR is irrelevant, they should've fixed addresed the pedal design, even if it is more expansive. Not addressing the root cause in the first place, may have cost Toyota more in the long run
 
Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: prax

The guy wasn't familiar with the new ignition system. Quiet unfortunate. He should've figured out how to turn the car off before driving away. I mean he's not going to leave the car on once he gets home.



I have a 08 ES350. When the car is in park you just push the button and it shuts off. When it's in D and moving you have to hold the button in for 3 seconds to shut it off. Very confusing and NOBODY from Lexus has ever instructed my wife or me on how to do an emergency shut down. Which is really the problem. I'll bet the guy was pushing the button like crazy but never held it in for 3 seconds. Lexus should send a letter to all owners with instructions on this shutdown procedure with a response card indicating you have read the letter and understand it. Then for all of the response cards that don't come back they should have the dealers contact each individual personally to instruct them. OR have a free oil change and come in so we can instruct you on saftey features. Etc.


So your manual does not have the 3 seconds to shut it off instructions?
 
Quote:
the company issued a statement Monday saying its recall letter "confirms that no defect exists in vehicles in which the driver's floor mat is compatible with the vehicle and properly secured."

Use the right floor mat, secure it properly, and you won't have a problem.

Shudder to think people should be required to buy the right part for their cars.

http://www.safetyresearch.net/2009/11/03/nhtsa-pronounces-and-toyota-pounces-it%E2%80%99s-the-floor-mats-stupid/
 
Troubling indeed that a CHP officer would not immediately:

Put it in neutral. The rev limiter will prevent the motor from overrevving, and anyway...I can always buy another.

slam the brakes on and bring it to a halt: Yes, I know the vacuum goes away if you pump it repeatedly at full throttle, but why would you do that??

Turn off the key, when it is traveling in a straight line. Most cars can be turned part way off without locking the wheel, and leaving the road slowly because you cannot steer has to be way better than 100+ mph slamming into something.

Has it happened to me: yes, twice, 1941 plymouth and a 1967 BMW, both suddenly went to the floor when the throttle return spring broke. Even as a 16 year old - 41 plymouth - the Clutch, Key and brakes instantly provided relief.

Sadly, when Audi experienced this claim 25 years ago, they found that most people had just pushed on the wrong pedal. Many of the owners has said they did at the initial investigation, then when they heard that Audi might have a problem, they changed their stories. NOBODY wants to be a poor driver!!!

Incidentally, Audi also did a follow up, they found that when the car was at full speed and the throttle floored, the car would stop in almost exactly the same time and distance - floored or not!!

Still, I am always open to other explanations as the investigation continues....
 
Have you done any reading about this before posting?

- Gear selector was finicky
- Brakes were ineffective over the power of the engine at that speed; with no vacuum you would get a few seconds of good stopping and then nothing
- The car had push-button start/stop, so he couldn't just turn the key
 
"Have you done any reading about this before posting?"

What does that mean??

Are you claiming that Toyota brakes are different than other cars, that they will not easily stop your car even at full throttle?

That the vacuum boost fails, even if you do not pump them?

Or that the millions spent on the Audi research was all mistaken??

My 2008 3.5 Litre Toyota, easily passes both tests above, so....

please present information, not flames

Of course, I am interested in what happens if you push the stop-start button while driving, I do not have one to experiment with. If somebody writes his experience with that button, please do not flame him for doing so
 
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: prax

The guy wasn't familiar with the new ignition system. Quiet unfortunate. He should've figured out how to turn the car off before driving away. I mean he's not going to leave the car on once he gets home.



I have a 08 ES350. When the car is in park you just push the button and it shuts off. When it's in D and moving you have to hold the button in for 3 seconds to shut it off. Very confusing and NOBODY from Lexus has ever instructed my wife or me on how to do an emergency shut down. Which is really the problem. I'll bet the guy was pushing the button like crazy but never held it in for 3 seconds. Lexus should send a letter to all owners with instructions on this shutdown procedure with a response card indicating you have read the letter and understand it. Then for all of the response cards that don't come back they should have the dealers contact each individual personally to instruct them. OR have a free oil change and come in so we can instruct you on saftey features. Etc.


So your manual does not have the 3 seconds to shut it off instructions?


Probably does. But who reads the owners manual to look for how to shut off the car in an emergency? Have you ever even thought to look for that subject?
 
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