Redline 5-30 3348 miles Dakota 4.7 Issues

[jeremiah2360]

I volunteered to post this gentleman's oil analysis results here. He was concerned about the oil emulsion under the oil fill cap and had the oil tested at work(I don`t know where he works). I have the same motor and emulsion with no issues. His following results are suspect and I recommended Dyson Analysis(he hasn`t committed to it). We would also like to hear any opinions on his results. Thanks in advance.

Oil - Redline 5w30
Miles on truck - 6348
Miles on oil - 3348

Miscellaneous
A/F - N
Fuel - N
H2O - Y*
Viscosity - 56

Infrared Analysis
Soot - 27
Oxidation - 79
Nitration - 126*
Sulfur - 0

Wear Metals(PPM)
Copper - 6
Iron - 46
Chrome - 3
Aluminum - 16*
Silicon - 12
Lead - 0
Sodium - 47*
Tin - 0
Nickel - 2
Barium - 1
Silver - 1
Zinc - 1296
Boron - 0
Calcium - 2551
Phosphor - 1201
Magnesium- 35
Potasium - 5
Molybend - 532
Titanium - 0
Vanadium - 0

* These items were what the lab marked as being concerned about.

Here are some comments the lab made on the sample report.
- Need to establish wear trend for compartment
- Positive water contamination
- Sodium commonly used as corrosion inhibitor in coolant
- Sodium may be from over the road salt(how did that get in there?)
- Nitration level is unacceptable
- Aluminum is reportable
- Water may be from condensation
- Resample to monitor

I figured I'd give this oil until 7000 truck miles and resample/change it.

 

[Al]

In my humble opinion things seem O.K. Is this oil still in??

 

[jeremiah2360]

He said he was going to change it out at 7000 miles.

 

[jeremiah2360]

Thats vehicle miles, so in another 652 miles.

 

[Gene K]

I dont like the Oxid / Nitration (0-199 Scale?).
This could mean sludge formation.

The oil seems to have thinned to a 20 Weight. Unusual for Redline.

The engine was very new when this oil went in.

I am not very good at looking at Redline UOA's as they sometimes give weird numbers.

If he wont go for a Terry Dyson Analysis I would try to talk him into a 3000 mi run with a conventional Dino such as Chevron/Havoline and retest.

We had a Durango on here (Second hand report) that sludged up with 3000 mi OCI. The poster never stated which engine. I asked.

Gene

 

[Motorbike]

The sodium is a performance additive in the oil

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000134

If you were to search the new oil samples for the Redline you'll find additives such as this and Si vary to some degree .

You'll also find the contaminates such as silver do as well .

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000204#000001

Since that motor is young and getting some moisture in it from design flaw or short tripping if it were me , I'd switch brands and retest two intervals later . JMO

A few people in the know have told me Redline is not so good with water and condensation . I don't know it for fact but I don't disagree much with guys that have that much knowledge .

 

[Idrinkmotoroil]

I might suspect a coolant leak, they don't measure coolant in the analysis but they do find water and sodium. Might also explain the thinning of the oil. Nothing wrong with the oil but I think there is something wrong with the engine. The oxidation and nitration numbers are often skewed on Redline if the calibration is off at the testing lab. It has happened to me on every Redline run and the lab I use explained that it throws off their infrareds. I think they need a virgin sample to calibrate things properly for the used oil sample.

Getting back to the vehicle, I think it has issues which need to be searched further, water in the oil is definitely a problem and would lead to emulsion for sure.

 

[buster]

Try another oil and see what happens.

[ January 05, 2005, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[jeremiah2360]

Thanks guys. This info is from a Dakota site that I frequent and I am just trying to help a fellow Dakota owner out. He is just getting the emulsion in the filler neck like most 4.7s are in cold climates. This kinda freaked him out so he got it tested. I did check out some VOAs of Redline on this site and told him about their unorthodox add pack and how it can skew an analysis especially if the lab is unfamiliar with Redline oils. I think Terry would help him more than anything but thats his decision

 

[Pablo]

I must say that I don't think this is a vehicle that I'd run any REALLY expensive oil in.

Tell you friend to run dino for 3K intervals for awhile. Then run an AutoRx treatment (optional) and switch to Amsoil 5W-40.

It's really uncanny, these water type event kinda UOA's using Redline.

Jeremiah - forgive me, but you almost make it seem like this oil emulsion is normal. It may be common to this engine, but I can't think this is a good thing for any IC engine. What's the root cause? Is there any breathing changes, is the thermostat really cool? - it bugs me I guess.

 

[jeremiah2360]

Pablo it is very common. I don`t know if I can post a link to the site I was talking about but one thread(theres a lot of threads on this issue)has a good picture of this emulsion. The filler neck and cap are plastic bolted to the exsposed front of an iron block with aluminum heads that have magnesium valve covers. The plastic parts never get hot enough in winter to burn off condensation. There is a TSB that states the problem is normal and includes a "fix". The fix is an insulated filler cap and removable baffle(you have to remove it to add/change oil)
that basically hides the emulsion(out of site out of mind). Short trippers using dino suffer the most with synthetic users(esp long trippers) seeing the least. Mine isn`t bad(Amsoil,usually drive at least 20 miles at a time)but is there.

 

[Pablo]

Thanks - now that you mention the "fix" I suddenly remember hearing more than once about the problem. Bad design.

 

[T-Keith]

There's got to be a weak PVC system on these engines, because even though their oil fill necks are susceptible to accumulating the stuff, there's still way too much. I've seen it with two cups full of foam in them. For those that own one of these engines you may want to avoid short trips.

-T

 

[Starbreaker666]

I have a 4.7L in my '02 Ram. These motors do show "emultion" or milky colored condensation. with short trip driving. I have/will change the PCV evey 20k miles to keep ahead of the game. These motors do shear dino oil fast. Both of my 5/30 Valvoline UOA(both on this board) sheared to 20wt in 3k miles. Howeve, the wear rates were VERY good. Also in my last UOA I showed 1.3% of fuel dilution. Also a factor in a weak ventalation system. This was after taking a nice 25 mile run on the highway to dump the used oil out of my drain pans. I have increased highway trips to keep oil at temp longer and I switched to M1SS 5/30. I will be doing a 5k OCI/UOA to check thins out. Oh, this truck does see alot of short trip and warm up time ihere in winter. I only live 3 miles from work.

 

[NEPA_Z]

Had the 'emulsion' years ago on a carbureted small-block Ford. The PCV valve was in the filler cap, drawing warm engine vapors up into the chilled cap and front of the valve cover; created condensation on the spot during winter. Pulled the valve cover and the white yuck was only along the PCV flow - felt better seeing that....

 

[TheFuror]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Al:
In my humble opinion things seem O.K. Is this oil still in??

---

With iron at 46 ppm, is this okay?

Is this due to the engine being new (less than 7K miles)?

Thanx

Bob W.

 

[rpwilliams]

Hey folks, I'm the poor sap that owns this sample & truck. I'll be changing the oil this weekend as well as resampling. As soon as I receive the results I'll post them here. The more and more people I talk to, the worse I discover this problem can be. Even my dealership who has seen the problem many a time recommends that I contact Daimler Chrysler. I've also been reading up on the effects of excessive water in engine oil, it sucks. I believe there are two fixes to this problem but I don't understand why DC doesn't implement them. 1) Replace the fill tube with a plug and use old school fill ports in the valve cover. 2) Increase engine op temp by a few degrees with a hotter thermo. Anyone agree?

 

[JohnBrowning]

I had this engine in my 2001 Dakota. I found that round town driveing generated insane amounts of foam. When my wife drived it it was really bad. I found that useing a good synthetic and driveing to work twice a week preety much elimanated my problem even in the winter. I used to drive 80 miles a day round trip on the hwy. I used mostly M1 10W30 in the winter and 15W50 in the summer. It still had some foam but never more then a teaspoon once I made sure to drive it more for her.

The iron seems awfuly high even for a DC engine. Nice to see a Pb at zero!!

 

[jeremiah2360]

Hey rp, decided to register here I see

Lets not panic yet, your analysis could be worse, and at least your aware of a potential problem. The next two samples should shed a lot more light on this. Are you using Redline again? If it were me I would run an inexspensive filter and dino for 300 miles(pennsoil 10-30,Chevron/Havoline Supreme 10-30) then again for 3000 miles and resample. This would solve the Redline add pack factor so you could get a more diffinitive read.

I was thinking about the water. Maybe you took a hot sample and got some condensation in the container? Or a cold sample before any "normal" moisture could be eliminated by driving a bit? Just a thought.

If things don`t improve Call Terry!

The filler in the valve cover would solve things.

The temp idea I don`t agree with. Heat is the enemy IMHO. I have run a 180 t-stat almost since the truck was new and just put the 195 back for this winter. I seem to be getting better gas miliege this winter so it might be in there for good for convience sake. I`m averaging 14 now and if I see 16(instead of 15-15.5) consistently with the 195 this summer it will definitely stay. My worry with a 180 is that even though I don`t get a code for "running too cold too long" (some do with an inexact t-stat)the truck may be running slightly rich because the comp is so temp sensitive. My point is that if I wasn`t concerned about the possible negatives I would stay with the 180. Anything over 195 is right out.

Keep Us Posted!!

PS; Who is the lab doing the testing BTW?

 

[rpwilliams]

Jeremiah,

Is your's a 4x4? I'm getting 20mpg out of mine stock(4x2 x-cab). Let me tell you about Saturday's oil change experience.

I drove to Summit Racing (which is so conveniently just minutes from my home) to pick up new Redline. On the way back I took the long way utilizing the E-way to try and burn off the foam, riiiight. When I reached my home I opened the hood and removed the fill cap and baffle. Of course, as usual, it was completely full of the retched ooze. I acquired my sample via the dipstick tube, which the lab will be analyzing today. As I drained the oil I noticed nothing out of the ordinary coming from inside. Before refilling I used some Mobil that I had laying around to rinse everything out of the tube and into my drain pan. I then wiped out what was left and filled once again with Redline 5w30. I swapped out the oil filter using the stock Mopar as usual. Once the change was done I decided to head out to my buddy's house to check on a car I have stored in his barn. I haven't had the car very long and with the freezing cold weather a few weeks ago I realized I never checked the antifreeze. Its about a 15 mile drive, one way, on 45 mph roads. When I got there I left the truck running. I checked the car out for about 10 minutes, it was O.K., plenty of green. I then headed home. Once at home again I checked the fill tube for foam. Sure enough, that crap was once again lining the fill tube.

I'll post the results as soon as I get them. The lab is at Ohio CAT.