Redline 0w40, 5w40 and 10w40: What is the difference?

[tired]

What do you mean by that?

Straight from Red Line's technical support (Dave G at Red Line, now retired). They have said that their esters (the type they use) do not clean but will run clean.

he same info is written under each grade.

Difference between running clean and cleaning.

I'm just repeating this secondhand.

 

[tired]

Esters, no?

You said group IV and V:

I bet all Group 4 and 5 oils clean by default.

He was responding to your claim that group IV (PAO) "cleans by default."

 

[tired]

but all boutique oils clean very well.

[citation needed]

 

[JackWildfeuer]

So what compound of amine or a amide would result in cleaning?

HPL does not produce oils for aviation so I don't see why that comment is relative.

I do not know I was actualy going to ask you your thoughts on this! Is this a possability or no way?

I have not thought to much about this since it was outside of my wheel house I was using esters and PAO's when I was playing around with cleaning.

I was curious though because of PEA's use to remove carbon from fuel system. Yamaha has for a long time had their Ring Free product for use in Marine engine claiming that this fuel additive free's stuck rings and we have not had 2 cycle marine engines in some time in the USA due to emissions so figured it must be PEA and must apply to 4 cycle engines. I was thinking that you would maybe need to add a functional group to it to target the carbon and something in the base stock it self. It was though a silly wild guess in the moment that I was typing in the thread like brain storming.

It just seemed like if you eliminated esters and high energy solvents they might be a place to start looking. Since they are already used for friction modification in formulated oils and already used to clean up carbon in fuel systems.

I have to get to bed. I remeber you having some products of your own do you still sell to the public?

Oh and the fact that they dont make aviation related crankcase oil was me just being silly about not owning anything that would benifit from an oil capable of 30,000 mile drain intervals with no bypass filtration in the sentence before. Even with bypass filtration I just would not trust any oil in my sump for 30,000 miles in anything I own with out being able to tear the engine apart after some time. It is no slight against HPL I just can not benifit from something I would never leave in long enough to make it worth the cost of the product plus shipping.

If HPL was in Chicago and they are not I could purchase a ticket from Amtrack to Chicago and be there in 3 hours and 45 minutes for less than it cost to ship a case of oil to me or close to the same cost. My Amtrack ticket would cost me $29 most days. I looked it up tonight. Two cases was crazy.

I looked up another oil from NothernTools and it is a cheap synthetic GIII for sure. Before shipping the cost for 6 gallons was $8.40 per gallon. To ship that 6 gallons was roughly $24 which brought the cost up to $14.50 per gallon. The shipping is not bad because the total price to my door would still be less than anything I could purchase retail at full price.

When I purchased 2 cases of oil from NAPA online each case was 4 1 gallon jugs of Mobil 1 Delvac Extreme Synthetic 10W30. The oil was $11 a gallon on special and $23 for shipping 8 gallons of oil.

I just checked HPL and 6 quarts of Premium Plus Passenger Car Oil is 103.16 before tax and that is not their top of the line product and they want $20.32 to ship me 6 little quarts of oil. So with tax and shipping 6 quarts of HPL is $129.66. That brings my unit price per quart up to $21.61 delivered to my door. I can get Mobil 1 in all of it's flavors for $25 per 5 quart Jug or Valvoline Restore and Protect for $29 from Walmart localy if I order 2 at time shiped for free to my home usually next day. So I am getting almost 4 quarts of Mobil 1 almost 5 quarts any flavor at Walmart for the price of 1 quart of not even the best HPL has to offer. From a margin of return stand point and utility I would have to get an insane amount of utility to square those numbers! That is Government money type spending unless you can actual extract that utility in a meaningful way. I have not done the match because it is 4am and I have not gone to bed yet but I am not sure even running to 30,000 miles which I would not get done in a year would even allow me to break even. Keep in mind you can get Synthetic oil from Walmart as low as $22 per 5 quart jug name brand not Walmarts brand.

I have no doubt HPL makes an incredible product. Enough people that I trust sing their praise so I have no problem with the idea that they make fantstic oil. My only point is is it worth it from a point of return on investment. For me it is a hard no! Clearly industry is their primary market not the average consumer.

 

[tolian21]

What about Mobil 1 Euro 0w40? It looks very good with PAO and can be bought under $30 for 5qt

 

[altaylar]

What about Mobil 1 Euro 0w40? It looks very good with PAO and can be bought under $30 for 5qt

It is practically a thick 30 grade

 

[kschachn]

What about Mobil 1 Euro 0w40? It looks very good with PAO and can be bought under $30 for 5qt

Even HPL has recommended it.

 

[Astro14]

It is practically a thick 30 grade

So?

I have a couple of excellent UOAs for that oil in a twin turbo V12.

 

[kschachn]

So?

I have a couple of excellent UOAs for that oil in a twin turbo V12.

Plus the fact that it’s not really about grade.

 

[altaylar]

Even HPL has recommended it.

I believe that was the previous formulation.

So?

I have a couple of excellent UOAs for that oil in a twin turbo V12.

I am looking for a high hths 40 grade, not 30 grade. What in those UOA did show you that they are as good as a thicker 40 grade, less say, Redlkne 10w40?

 

[kschachn]

I believe that was the previous formulation.

What about the formulation changed that makes it inferior?

 

[4wd]

Spend some time on this forum, people who knows way better than I do have explained that repeatedly.

 

[OVERKILL]

Remember Mobil 1 Tri Syn that was when EM started playing around with AN's and we had PAO+Ester+AN's and I thought those where some of the best if not the best Mobil 1 formulations we ever got from Mobil!

That was a product of Dr. Les Rudnick, the same guy behind HPL's formulation, which also, unsurprisingly, uses a similar approach with PAO/AN/Ester for their higher end offerings, dropping the PAO in favour of Group III for the lower tier ones.

 

[OVERKILL]

Spend some time on this forum, people who knows way better than I do have explained that repeatedly.

Dave has addressed this, saying he has no reason to believe the performance of the product has changed.

 

[Astro14]

I believe that was the previous formulation.


I am looking for a high hths 40 grade, not 30 grade. What in those UOA did show you that they are as good as a thicker 40 grade, less say, Redlkne 10w40?

I ran the oil for 10,000 miles and a twin turbo charged 12 cylinder engine creating over 500 hp. The oil viscosity was fine. The wear metal very low.

You’re focused on one number as an aspect of performance, when in fact, you should be more concerned with specification, requirements, and actual performance across a broad set of parameters.

What do you think you need that exceeds the MB 229.5 specification for HTHS?

 

[travis8352]

So?

I have a couple of excellent UOAs for that oil in a twin turbo V12.

I love how a 13cst 0w-40 is referred to as basically a 30w but a 12.2cst 0w-30 is referred to as basically a 40w

 

[buster]

When I first joined the site I remember George from AVLube said they were moving away from esters or trying to. This was around 2002'ish when moving to SuperSyn. A XOM guy back in early 2000's though said they were moving on to better non-ester cosolvents. I don't know what a non-ester cosolvent would be.

 

[buster]

Yes! In almost every way they are better today. The problem is that engine design changed and the lubricants now are not even close to being up to scratch for the terrible compromises that have been made to engines from the consumer stand point.

What is not leaps and orders of magnitude better are the "premium" synthetics and boutique oils. Additive packages have gotten more complex as our understanding has increased. The base stocks used are of higher quality on over the counter conventional oils but with the "Synthetics" they have basicly improved their ability to make a product that is almost as good as the older stuff but at a fraction of the price. So conventional oils are the best they have ever been but they did introduce some new problems as well. Remeber every company that is publicly traded has it's first duty to the share holders to maximize profits. There is a limit to what you can charge retail and still have high enough volume of sales to consistently turn a profit! You can only put so much magic in a bottle before people wont pay for it!

My wife and I have been married 28 year and when she was just my girlfriend in college about 30 years ago Amsoil was $12.99 to $14.95 I think it was as a prefered customer so after paying for the right to buy their oil! If they had not switched to a PAO/Ester blend and likely other things and also put out a GIII product what do you think a quart would cost today? In the 1990's I think Mobil 1 and Castrol Syntec where about $12.95 a gallon.

Unless Valvoline is a bunch of liars and I do not think they are they are not using base stocks to clean. This is a different technology altogether I think than we have seen before. I am guessing amines or amides but that is just a guess though on my part. So things do change over time.

I can not wait for all these guys using HPL at 30,000 mile OCI after they have 100K or more to pull a piston for us and measure timing chain and valve train parts. That is going to be awesome if they do like the brilliance of Valvolines video with Oilgeek and other's! That 500K mile tear down comparison between their conventional and synthetic was just magic!

Seems to be the case. Look at these new lower SA oils like Mobil 1 Advanced Clean or even Valvoline Restore and Protect.

Reminds of what this guy said back in 2004.

"That's just based on tearaparts I've seen, from a group of some very talented chemists playing with some very fancy toys. "Synthetic" can be about as useful a term with oil as "organic" is with food. Plastic-related materials (as in high levels of VI improver, PIB & diester) are synthetic, but there are better things to put in your lubricants these days. (But those better components, specifically high-vis PAOs and non-ester cosolvents, cut into the bottom line, you know.)"

 

[Japanese]

Even HPL has recommended it.

What and for what application they recommended it?

 

[buster]

One of the great things about HPL is they tell you what's in the line from a base oil stand point and they're based on one of Mobil 1's best oils developed by Dr. Rudnick. (RIP).