Plug-In Hybrid Battery Wear

[dcd]

Over and over I hear people, including reputable automotive podcasts, tout plug-in hybrids as as being a substitute for a full BEV (for shorter commutes) with added benefit of not causing range anxiety.

While this is possible, I am concerned they are missing one important point - battery wear. It stands to reason that a 15 kWh battery pack for a PHEV operating as EV-only would see 5 times as much usage as a 75 kWh BEV for the same distance.

Case in point, a coworker has boasted for the past 10+ years about not having to use gas for his 30-40 mile round trip commute with his Chevy Volt. He charges at home and at work.

Just this past year while on a road trip his Volt broke down and had to be towed to a dealership. The dealer said it needed a new battery pack at a cost of $25000. The car had about 70,000 miles on it (maybe less). He ended up towing it to a major city 2 hours away to have a refurbished pack installed for about $8000 at a specialty shop. Even at this lower cost, his car was essentially totaled.

I have to wonder if he would have had a much better outcome with a pure BEV, as he used the gas motor very little and put (I believe) a strain on the much smaller PHEV battery pack. Essentially he put 70000 x 5 = 350,000 BEV equivalent miles on that little 16kWh pack.

 

[Rand]

how much longer would the battery have lasted period if it was going 10+ years... would it have made another year? etc.

 

[supton]

I don’t see how you are getting 5x. Yes, 5 x 15 is 75. But BEV is also generally getting similar discharge rate, no? Run any battery from 90% to 10% and they should get a similar number of charge-discharge cycles.

I wonder if he just got unlucky?

 

[BillyHW]

Electric cars are an intelligence test. If you buy one, you fail the test.

 

[JimPghPA]

The discharge rate would be significantly higher with the smaller battery pack that's used in a hybrid. That alone could end up having the battery run at a much higher temperature internally then it would if it had been a full electric vehicle without being a hybrid. That could significantly degrade the life expectancy of the battery. Makes total sense.

 

[dcd]

I don’t see how you are getting 5x. Yes, 5 x 15 is 75. But BEV is also generally getting similar discharge rate, no? Run any battery from 90% to 10% and they should get a similar number of charge-discharge cycles.

I wonder if he just got unlucky?

A pack that is 5 times larger would have 5 times fewer full charge-discharge cycles.

For similar batteries in the utility industry (Li-ion), warranties are typically based on total lifetime throughput (kWh) regardless of the number of full cycle charges. There are also usually limitations to the total throughout per day (kWh) and per year. A much different use-case,I realize, but there are many similarities.

 

[JoelB]

Your one data point is a Volt. The first generation was essentially a pre-production vehicle sold to customers as Guinea pigs. Poor dealer training and support didn't help. I wouldn't attempt to learn anything from that single vehicle issue.

 

[Rand]

A pack that is 5 times larger would have 5 times fewer full charge-discharge cycles.

For similar batteries in the utility industry (Li-ion), warranties are typically based on total lifetime throughput (kWh) regardless of the number of full cycle charges. There are also usually limitations to the total throughout per day (kWh) and per year. A much different use-case,I realize, but there are many similarities.

so you would expect a 75kwh battery in the same conditions to last 55 years ?

 

[MCompact]

The hybrid battery in my 2021 Sahara 4xe has a 10 year/100,000 mile warranty. I’m not losing any sleep over it.

 

[dcd]

Your one data point is a Volt. The first generation was essentially a pre-production vehicle sold to customers as Guinea pigs. Poor dealer training and support didn't help. I wouldn't attempt to learn anything from that single vehicle issue.

True. However, it doesn't negate the concern about overworking a smaller battery pack. The basic battery technology hasn’t changed that much, although the LFP cells are likely more robust.

My main concern is that these types of batteries are typically rated for a certain number of cycles and heavy EV-only use of PHEV batteries could significantly increase their wear due to their much smaller size.

 

[dcd]

so you would expect a 75kwh battery in the same conditions to last 55 years ?

No, there’s also a time component to wear.

I think biggest disappointment for me is lack of replacements available from GM at a reasonable price. Based on this, I think would stick with high volume models if purchasing a PHEV or BEV.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not anti-EV. But it’s concerning that so many will be throw-aways after 10-15 years. It seems to go against the sustainability purpose of EVs.

 

[Rand]

No, there’s also a time component to wear.

I think biggest disappointment for me is lack of replacements available from GM at a reasonable price. Based on this, I think would stick with high volume models if purchasing a PHEV or BEV.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not anti-EV. But it’s concerning that so many will be throw-aways after 10-15 years. It seems to go against the sustainability purpose of EVs.

so based on your initial premise how much longer do you think it would have lasted in "normal" service.

 

[dcd]

so based on your initial premise how much longer do you think it would have lasted in "normal" service.

I don’t really know, but I would speculate about 15 years for normal use. It’s hard to tell whether this particular failure was driven by usage or time.

 

[GSCJR]

GM told me the battery on a Volt lasts the life of the vehicle, 8 years.

 

[Nick1994]

Both electric car batteries and electric car technology has changed quite a bit in the last 10 years, so kind of a moot point. LiFePO4 batteries are much less bothered with charge cycles.

He saved some gas but it doesn't sound like he drives much. He let that car's battery age out before it wore out IMO. If he put 20k miles a year on the car then at 200k miles maybe he could wash his hands of the thing and junk it, the car did it's job.

 

[proveitwithdata]

Over and over I hear people, including reputable automotive podcasts, tout plug-in hybrids as as being a substitute for a full BEV (for shorter commutes) with added benefit of not causing range anxiety.

While this is possible, I am concerned they are missing one important point - battery wear. It stands to reason that a 15 kWh battery pack for a PHEV operating as EV-only would see 5 times as much usage as a 75 kWh BEV for the same distance.

Case in point, a coworker has boasted for the past 10+ years about not having to use gas for his 30-40 mile round trip commute with his Chevy Volt. He charges at home and at work.

Just this past year while on a road trip his Volt broke down and had to be towed to a dealership. The dealer said it needed a new battery pack at a cost of $25000. The car had about 70,000 miles on it (maybe less). He ended up towing it to a major city 2 hours away to have a refurbished pack installed for about $8000 at a specialty shop. Even at this lower cost, his car was essentially totaled.

I have to wonder if he would have had a much better outcome with a pure BEV, as he used the gas motor very little and put (I believe) a strain on the much smaller PHEV battery pack. Essentially he put 70000 x 5 = 350,000 BEV equivalent miles on that little 16kWh pack.

If you want to see how a well designed, quality, dependable, reliable works scoot over to the prius prime users forums. They will calm your fears about battery wear. Some of these are rolling as taxis and other high mileage, used hard, put away wet etc and have no issues.

packs are not that bad, since aftermarket took over the scene. Now on a bev it depends. Tesla metrics make it seem they should outperform a phev, but without real world fleet data its difficult to say

 

[BillyHW]

GM told me the battery on a Volt lasts the life of the vehicle, 8 years.

Disposable cars are so great for the environment.

 

[Snagglefoot]

The average age of a vehicle in use in the USA is 12 years, meaning one half the vehicles are in the wrecking yard by the 12 th year. This early model Volt should have been sent to the wrecking yard at year 10. If the Volt in question was in use for 10 years, it was a first generation Volt. There was a second generation Volt allegedly with an improved battery. In any case there should be tons of early Volts failing if the one in question is typical.

 

[Snagglefoot]

The guy purchased the wrong kind of car for the intended usage. However, there was not much to chose from 10 years ago. It was hauling around a gasoline engine for no reason. Even if he had a much longer commute, the car would have depleted the battery prior to the engine firing up resulting in way more miles but with the same battery outcome. With 200 work days per year, he possibly did a 50%-100% depletion and charge 4,000 times as it was mentioned he charged at both home and work. More data is required.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Given the Volt was one of the first plug in hybrids, I think it’s a bit harsh to criticize its longevity. So it only lasted 10 years and 4,000 charges. Oh well.