Please Recommend Oil for my Pentastar 3.6

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: TKNY
Guys I was just reading about PYB and it says it is formulated with active cleaning agents. I remember hearing somewhere that for break in oil you don't want to use too much cleaning agent.

Any opinions?


You are over thinking this. Follow your original plan. It was a good one. PYB is not going to hinder break in. Neither will synthetic if you wish to go to it right off at 1K.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI

MEETING a spec and being CERTIFIED are two very different things. All the OP need do is use an oil that meets or exceeds the spec. The OP is not required to use an officially licensed/certified oil. Mobil 1 meets/exceeds MS-6395 without doubt I would say.


An OEM can certainly require the use of an approved lubricant. They cannot however require you to use a specific oil unless they provide it free of charge.

I'm not sure on Chrysler's verbiage as per their requirements, but many of the Euro OEM's require you to use an approved lubricant.

Also, I think "Meets or exceeds" often gets mixed with "recommended for". Mobil 1 lists their 0w-40 as meeting or exceeding API SN, ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4. And we know it carries the approvals from both the ACEA and the API.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI

MEETING a spec and being CERTIFIED are two very different things. All the OP need do is use an oil that meets or exceeds the spec. The OP is not required to use an officially licensed/certified oil. Mobil 1 meets/exceeds MS-6395 without doubt I would say.


An OEM can certainly require the use of an approved lubricant. They cannot however require you to use a specific oil unless they provide it free of charge.

I'm not sure on Chrysler's verbiage as per their requirements, but many of the Euro OEM's require you to use an approved lubricant.

Also, I think "Meets or exceeds" often gets mixed with "recommended for". Mobil 1 lists their 0w-40 as meeting or exceeding API SN, ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4. And we know it carries the approvals from both the ACEA and the API.


That is not my experience( I worked dealer parts and service )and I disagree. In regards to OE oil spec's( Chrysler specifically here )meets/exceeds is all you need do.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI

MEETING a spec and being CERTIFIED are two very different things. All the OP need do is use an oil that meets or exceeds the spec. The OP is not required to use an officially licensed/certified oil. Mobil 1 meets/exceeds MS-6395 without doubt I would say.


An OEM can certainly require the use of an approved lubricant. They cannot however require you to use a specific oil unless they provide it free of charge.

I'm not sure on Chrysler's verbiage as per their requirements, but many of the Euro OEM's require you to use an approved lubricant.

Also, I think "Meets or exceeds" often gets mixed with "recommended for". Mobil 1 lists their 0w-40 as meeting or exceeding API SN, ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4. And we know it carries the approvals from both the ACEA and the API.


That is not my experience( I worked dealer parts and service )and I disagree. In regards to OE oil spec's( Chrysler specifically here )meets/exceeds is all you need do.


But that's exactly my point about the verbiage. Why does Mobil use "meets or exceeds" with respect to the API and ACEA when we know their product is officially sanctioned by both organizations?

I think the "weasel words" are the "recommended for" ones.

Here's a Ford manual for examples:

Note they say you need to use a lube that meets (not meets/exceeds) Ford spec WSS-M2C153-H.

Side thought: If it was as easy as just using the term meets/exceeds, I think we'd see Redline, AMSOIL...etc using it. But we don't. They use "recommended for". Which tells me there is a significant difference between the two.

 

[OVERKILL]

And from BMW:

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx

Quote:
If you need to add oil between oil changes and BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil is unavailable, you may top up the oil level with one of the following approved synthetic oils. For information on checking your engine oil level refer to your vehicle's Owner's Manual.


That doesn't sound like there is much in the way of wiggle room for using a lubricant not on that list........

 

[OVERKILL]

And from Mercedes:

http://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/index.php?language_id=1

Quote:
We recommend using exclusively the products in the following lists that have been checked and approved by Mercedes-Benz because:
- design parts and operating fluids are tailored to one another
- damages that occur due to the usage of non-approved operating fluids are not covered by the warranty.

The approval by Mercedes-Benz is noted on the containers, for engine oils: e.g.: MB-Approval 229.51.


Again, not much room for "interpretation" there. You use an oil that has been approved by MB, or if you have an oil-related failure, you are SOL.

 

[OVERKILL]

And Audi:

http://www.audi.ca/etc/medialib/ngw/ca/m...icebulletin.pdf

Quote:

Service

Oil Quality

All Audi engines must always use engine oils that conform to the applicable Audi Oil Quality Standard. No other
engine oils may be used. This also applies when topping off engine oil between services.
Recommendation for Customers
It is recommended that the customer always carry a spare quart/liter of engine oil that conforms to the applicable
Audi Oil Quality Standard in case the engine oil needs topping off while on the road. The spare quart/liter of oil
should be stored in its original container, securely closed in the luggage compartment. Ensure the container is
securely stowed.

 

[TKNY]

Overkill: So from all your posts can we assume that Euro formula oil is always better than non?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: TKNY
Overkill: So from all your posts can we assume that Euro formula oil is always better than non?


I think in general, an oil meeting a plethora of Euro specs (M1 0w-40, GC 0w-30, BC 0w-40, PU 5w-40....etc) is going to be a "better" lubricant simply by virtue of the number of tests they have to pass to obtain the certifications they carry.

If that translates into Euro lubes being "better", then I guess I would have to say that they are

 

[cmorr]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: cmorr
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
The hold up is not money as another member said it is because Chrysler added a ridiculous multi-year test requirement to the certification process which delays the ability to get certified.


Hello NHEMI, you provided the OP great info but just wanted to add my comments as you are referring to me in this comment.

As I mentioned I have been using Mobil 1 for many many years and had planned to do so. When I learned on a Mopar forum the Chrysler spec was dropped and (for the reason you stated above which is also stated on their website) I reluctantly changed brands only after I did some reserach

I decided to call Chrysler through a engineering support contact my dealer gave me and I asked the same question. I didnt get a call back for a couple of weeks but eventually an engineer called me. This was not an issue of Mobil not having enough time as all the oil manufacturers are actively involved. How would other manufacturers have the lead time and Mobil would not. He stated there was ongoing fee involved for use of the spec and would not provided details beyond that.


I don't believe for a 2nd it is about the money. Mobil goes for every mfg's cert there is. Money is not the issue for them regardless of what Chrysler told you(IMO). If money was an issue they wouldn't go through it for all these different cert's. This is directly from Mobil's website and I personally believe it is the basic truth...

Originally Posted By: "Mobil 1 FAQ"

Question:
Mobil 1 5W-20 and Chrysler MS-6395
Why is your Mobil 1 5W-20 not Chrysler MS-6395 spec approved? Or if it is, why is the certification not on the bottle or website?
-- Josh Eads, Cabot, AR

Answer:
Chrysler’s latest revision to the MS-6395 specification calls for a field trial spanning multiple seasons over two years. While we fully expect the exceptional performance of Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil to meet Chrysler’s specification requirements, at this time we are in the process of evaluating our timeline to start this testing.


In the end it is a moot point as Mobil 1 most assuredly meets/exceeds the performance aspects of Chrysler MS-6395 and that is ALL you need do to preserve warranty. You do not have to use an oil that is officially certified.

Chrysler is getting to be as bad as GM( dexos )with these stupid requirements to get certified. All oil mfg's should tell these car mfg's to go pound sand as far as official certification.


"at this time we are in the process of evaluating our timeline to start this testing"

The website has stated this since at least early 2012 (I know because I checked it shortly after I purchased mu Challenger)

If it is not financial why are they waiting more then 18 months to start ?

IMO this is simply spin on their part, they have no intention to start

 

[NHHEMI]

Overkill;

Other than the BMW one the others are no different than what I have been saying. Also, last I knew BMW actually gives general maintenance free with new vehicles under warranty so they can specify what you use.

Mercedes is trying to spook people with twisted phrases and words. Good luck denying warranty for not using approved oil if they don't provide it free UNLESS they can show it actually caused the problem. If it meets the spec they have no grounds to stand on.

The others simply are saying you have to use an oil that meets the oe spec. MEET does not say MUST BE certified. Just meets the spec. If an oil exceeds a spec that means it has met it and surpassed it so that qualifies as well hence me using meets/exceeds a lot.

In regards to the OP's vehicle specificallly he only needs an oil that MEETS Chrysler MS-6395. It does not have to be certified. If the oil exceeds MS-6395 that too qualifies.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: cmorr

"at this time we are in the process of evaluating our timeline to start this testing"

The website has stated this since at least early 2012 (I know because I checked it shortly after I purchased mu Challenger)

If it is not financial why are they waiting more then 18 months to start ?

IMO this is simply spin on their part, they have no intention to start


Maybe they are mad at Chrysler for making it so hard to get certified. Along the same lines of the way so many oil companies told GM to get bent when they wanted to charge so much for dexos certification? Maybe it is Mobil taking a stand against a car mfg? Maybe this is payback for Chrysler swapping the OE oil to SOPUS? Maybe they are currently testing but haven't updated their website yet( oil mfg's are notorious for being a year or more behind updating their site content ). Who knows why?

They have stated publicly that it is related to the time frame. Their history shows they are not afraid to spend money. I will take them at their word on the web site. While I am no Mobil fan if I wanted to use it in a Chrysler under warranty I would not hesitate for half a heart beat because it isn't certified to MS-6395.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Overkill;

Other than the BMW one the others are no different than what I have been saying.


I don't take that away from those statements at all. They say you have to use an approved lubricant. I see no mention of differentiation between approved and meets/exceeds in any of those statements

Quote:
Also, last I knew BMW actually gives general maintenance free with new vehicles under warranty so they can specify what you use.


They do. But if you do your own, you are required to use an approved lubricant, of which they list a few on their site, as noted.

Quote:
Mercedes is trying to spook people with twisted phrases and words. Good luck denying warranty for not using approved oil if they don't provide it free UNLESS they can show it actually caused the problem.


They can require you to use an approved lubricant. They cannot require you to use a specific oil or OEM-branded lubricant. I think that's where are missing each other on this. There are plenty of approved lubricants on the market from all of the major manufacturers. Requiring you to use one of those lubricants for a guaranteed level of performance is well within the acceptable terms for retaining the factory warranty.

With any oil, approved or not, they would still need to prove a lubrication-related failure. The difference is that if an approved lubricant was used, your warranty is intact. If you were using a non-approved product, they are under no obligation to cover that failure under the warranty. Because you, as a consumer, knowingly violated its terms.

Quote:
The others simply are saying you have to use an oil that meets the oe spec. MEET does not say MUST BE certified. Just meets the spec. If an oil exceeds a spec that means it has met it and surpassed it so that qualifies as well hence me using meets/exceeds a lot.


I don't see that in these statements at all:

Originally Posted By: Mercedes
damages that occur due to the usage of non-approved operating fluids are not covered by the warranty.

Originally Posted By: Audi
All Audi engines must always use engine oils that conform to the applicable Audi Oil Quality Standard. No other
engine oils may be used.

*snip*

Use of the wrong oil may damage the engine. Damage caused by using the wrong oil will not be covered by the
applicable vehicle warranties.



Quote:
In regards to the OP's vehicle specificallly he only needs an oil that MEETS Chrysler MS-6395. It does not have to be certified. If the oil exceeds MS-6395 that too qualifies.


I'm not arguing you with respect to Chrysler's terms. As I noted in my first reply to you, I'm not familiar with them. However, as I also said, I believe the extremely clear words of the Euro marques that I noted above spell out that using a non-approved product can cause warranty issues if you have a lubricant-related failure.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Overkill;

Other than the BMW one the others are no different than what I have been saying.


I don't take that away from those statements at all. They say you have to use an approved lubricant. I see no mention of differentiation between approved and meets/exceeds in any of those statements

Quote:
Also, last I knew BMW actually gives general maintenance free with new vehicles under warranty so they can specify what you use.


They do. But if you do your own, you are required to use an approved lubricant, of which they list a few on their site, as noted.

Quote:
Mercedes is trying to spook people with twisted phrases and words. Good luck denying warranty for not using approved oil if they don't provide it free UNLESS they can show it actually caused the problem.


They can require you to use an approved lubricant. They cannot require you to use a specific oil or OEM-branded lubricant. I think that's where are missing each other on this. There are plenty of approved lubricants on the market from all of the major manufacturers. Requiring you to use one of those lubricants for a guaranteed level of performance is well within the acceptable terms for retaining the factory warranty.

With any oil, approved or not, they would still need to prove a lubrication-related failure. The difference is that if an approved lubricant was used, your warranty is intact. If you were using a non-approved product, they are under no obligation to cover that failure under the warranty. Because you, as a consumer, knowingly violated its terms.

Quote:
The others simply are saying you have to use an oil that meets the oe spec. MEET does not say MUST BE certified. Just meets the spec. If an oil exceeds a spec that means it has met it and surpassed it so that qualifies as well hence me using meets/exceeds a lot.


I don't see that in these statements at all:

Originally Posted By: Mercedes
damages that occur due to the usage of non-approved operating fluids are not covered by the warranty.

Originally Posted By: Audi
All Audi engines must always use engine oils that conform to the applicable Audi Oil Quality Standard. No other
engine oils may be used.

*snip*

Use of the wrong oil may damage the engine. Damage caused by using the wrong oil will not be covered by the
applicable vehicle warranties.



Quote:
In regards to the OP's vehicle specificallly he only needs an oil that MEETS Chrysler MS-6395. It does not have to be certified. If the oil exceeds MS-6395 that too qualifies.


I'm not arguing you with respect to Chrysler's terms. As I noted in my first reply to you, I'm not familiar with them. However, as I also said, I believe the extremely clear words of the Euro marques that I noted above spell out that using a non-approved product can cause warranty issues if you have a lubricant-related failure.


I am not going to keep fighting with you on this. I disagree with you on almost every point but going back and forth is pointless. If you think you must use an approved fluid then do so. If you think a car mfg can mandate you use an approved fluid I couldn't disagree more unless you start getting into situations where maintenance is provided free as part of the purchase of the vehicle. In that case, to preserve warranty, the car mfg has more rights to demand things of you. IF you have to pay for the maintenance all they can do is provide spec's the fluids you use must MEET( or exceed ). They can NOT make you use an approved fluid. They might try but if you fight them you will win. It is up to you to decide if it is worth it or not.

BMW can make you use their fluid because they give it free. Thus it doesn't matter if you use your own or not. In this case they can say use a specific oil.

I contend Mercedez is trying to twist things. They start out by saying "recommend" not must. Yes they get more specific in the lower comments but I contend if a fluid meets the spec a fluid meets the spec. Certification does not make it better. They can TRY and refuse coverage but all you need do is show the oil you used meets/exceeds the called for spec and they have nothing to stand on. Mercedez does not give free maintenance so all they can tell the consumer is use an oil that meets our spec. They can't force you to use an approved oil.

Audi says use an oil that conforms to their spec and no other. Again, nothing different than most all car mfg's say. That is not a MUST use an approved oil statement however. Conforms to is just another way of saying MEET.

Again, use what you want and I will use what I want. I would also point out this thread was about Chrysler and not BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc...

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: TKNY
Thanks guys. I'll use PYB 5w30 for my first 2 changes, and decide on my Synthetic down the line.

I've always been such a sucker for Amsoil advertising I have to actually fight myself to not use it. LOL

What kind of change intervals could I get with top of the line Amsoil 5w30 synthetic?


First off if you're concerned with your warranty your Wrangler calls for 5W20 not 5W30. Good luck with it! With any luck I'll be ordering a 2014 in a few months.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI

I am not going to keep fighting with you on this. I disagree with you on almost every point but going back and forth is pointless. If you think you must use an approved fluid then do so. If you think a car mfg can mandate you use an approved fluid I couldn't disagree more unless you start getting into situations where maintenance is provided free as part of the purchase of the vehicle. In that case, to preserve warranty, the car mfg has more rights to demand things of you. IF you have to pay for the maintenance all they can do is provide spec's the fluids you use must MEET( or exceed ). They can NOT make you use an approved fluid. They might try but if you fight them you will win. It is up to you to decide if it is worth it or not.

BMW can make you use their fluid because they give it free. Thus it doesn't matter if you use your own or not. In this case they can say use a specific oil.

I contend Mercedez is trying to twist things. They start out by saying "recommend" not must. Yes they get more specific in the lower comments but I contend if a fluid meets the spec a fluid meets the spec. Certification does not make it better. They can TRY and refuse coverage but all you need do is show the oil you used meets/exceeds the called for spec and they have nothing to stand on. Mercedez does not give free maintenance so all they can tell the consumer is use an oil that meets our spec. They can't force you to use an approved oil.

Audi says use an oil that conforms to their spec and no other. Again, nothing different than most all car mfg's say. That is not a MUST use an approved oil statement however. Conforms to is just another way of saying MEET.

Again, use what you want and I will use what I want. I would also point out this thread was about Chrysler and not BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc...


If you don't want to keep fighting, then provide some information to back-up your argument. So far, you appear to just want me to accept what you are saying at face value

In that vein:

You have yet to address my point that I made at the beginning of all of this regarding the difference between meets/exceeds and "recommended for". And I gave you a VERY good example, which was the PDS for M1 0w-40 which USES the Meets/Exceeds statement with respect to its API and ACEA ratings, since we KNOW it is officially licensed by both bodies.

Here's the Pennzoil Euro PDS:

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140007500286_20130123090_5.pdf

Originally Posted By: SOPUS

- Exceeds the requirements of ACEA A3/B3 and A3/B4
- Exceeds the requirements of API SN/CF


I also went over the Magnuson Moss Act with respect to this. They state:

Quote:
Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions.

In order to keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags. Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.


Which of course means that Mercedes cannot demand you to use a Mercedes-branded oil. That does not mean they cannot require you to use an oil that they've approved for use in their engines from one of the majors however. I can ask our lawyer at work (though I'm sure he has better things to do with his time) as to both of our interpretations as to what is being said here if you'd like?

I have no problem being wrong on this if that IS the case. But I would like to be PROVEN wrong, not just have some guy on the Internet tell me I am without demonstrating WHY. Do you not think that's fair?

 

[bigt61]

One of the reasons I chose PP 0W-20 over M1 0W-20 AFE for my son's new Dodge Dart is the fact that PP meets Chrysler MS-6395. The engine warranty is for 100,000 miles so it will be PP for a long time until M1 gets the certification. At one time Chrysler didn't sell very many cars and could be ignored, that time has passed. Mobil might as well pay up and chalk it up to the cost of doing business. Like it or not, they can afford it.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI


Audi says use an oil that conforms to their spec and no other. Again, nothing different than most all car mfg's say. That is not a MUST use an approved oil statement however. Conforms to is just another way of saying MEET.

Again, use what you want and I will use what I want. I would also point out this thread was about Chrysler and not BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc...

Man, this is OLD hat oil stuff:
you MUST use an approved lubricant thet meets the specs, or, is on the mfg approval list for the particular Brand/engine or BMW/MERC or VAG can and will legally deny warranty claims.
But If you use PYB API SN/ILSAC GF5/ ACEA A1 from IffyyLube in your BMW 3.0 twin turbo I6 and the engine died at 10Kmi due to completely varnished and sludged internals, I'm certain SOPUS would not cover you for your ignorance in using an incorrect spec oil for the application. If you used a correct spec product that's NOT on the approval list but that lube is advertised to "meet/exceed" your particular EURO spec, I might bet any of the Major N.A. oil Co's WOULD indeed step up and proved full remedy - at least I hope they would.
If I was driving a megadollar EURO car I would not put myself in that predicament of using a non approval list lube - as the list is extensive and the oils generally available.
AFA Chrysler spec goes, on a NON TURBO app low power density engine(not the FIAT engines) I would not worry about the spec as ILSAC GF5 lubes better dang well provide adequate performance - that's what ILSAC is here for, working with API.

 

[virginoil]

Originally Posted By: TKNY
Hey guys,

Just picked up a '13 Jeep Wrangler and would like to decide what oil to use. I plan on changing my oil at 1k miles, 4k miles and then 10k miles. I am planning on doing 6k intervals for the life of the motor, maybe go longer after sending in for an analysis. I would ideally like to do 10k intervals with a filter change every 5k but I guess the oil analysis will tell me what I can do.

I was planning on using an inexpensive synthetic for my first change at 1k since it will only be used for 3k miles, and then move on to a more expensive oil for the 6k intervals.

I was thinking Mobil 1 for first change since its cheap at Autozone, and then switch over to something else.

So my friendly oil analyzers and scientists, what do you recommend for me?


Lots of planning in opening statements. If I bought a new vehicle I would PLAN on following the manufacturers guidelines. We trust an OEM to produce a vehicle but we do not trust the OEM with the service instructions.

I strongly recommend not to drain the initial fill too early as that usually has special additives for breaking in period. I would run the initial oil fill until the first scheduled service and then change the oil unless your driving fits into the extreme service category and then change according to extreme service guidelines or follow the oil life monitor if it has one fitted.

Its good to see there is faith in BITOG recommendations sad to see there is no faith in OEM servicing guidelines. IMO if you follow the OEM service guidelines no need for a UOA on a new vehicle.

BTW use the OEM recommended grade and if required use the specified OEM approved oil.

 

[threeputtpar]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Ive broken in over 60 engines over the years


Sorry Arco, I couldn't help myself and just had to fix that for you!