Please Explain to me how changing the oil, increases wear for the next 1,000 miles

[TimeFlies]

When the high idle comes down from 1400 rpm, that's the car telling you it's ready to drive. No reason to idle for 20 seconds when you stop. That's just wasting fuel, however small.

No need to wait until 50°C to start driving. You're just wasting fuel idling that long and will take longer to reach that temp than it would just driving it. There's a fleet in Alaska (using HPL) that regularly cranks up in -30°C to -45°C temps. They start it, log the hours, put it in gear, and away they go. No difference in wear rates vs letting it idle to warm up.

Not disagreeing with you at all, but my way makes me feel better. It doesn't actually take long to see 50 C water temperatures, because they are plugged in hours before a winter start, and the water temp is already fairly warm.
They all have oil pan heaters as well, so the oil is warm.
It was -12 C here at 05:00 this morning when several of my drivers came to work, to head out in trucks. I turned on the cab heater, both block heaters, and the oil pan heater, in all trucks that I knew were heading out this morning, at about 22:00 hours yesterday. It was -8 C last night when I was out plugging everything in, and those trucks had sat for 2 to 3 days.

 

[ZeeOSix]

But we're not starting with fresh oil, and that old oil still has some iron left in it. So really it may actually be this:
2ppm at 0 miles
6ppm at 1000 miles
etc

You'd have to take a UOA at say 10 miles after the oil change to get a good starting baseline.

 

[shortyb]

Your vehicles love you!

A confirmation of your tactics... During the hot summer months after driving one of our German cars I open the hoods when they get parked in the garage. I even put a fan in front of the grill. I think this is a good way of preserving underhood wiring, vacuum tubing, and coolant hoses.

The notoriously leak prone cam cover gaskets on our BMWs - the E90 finally started leaking at 115K, which is well beyond the point that most start leaking. And my bought new by me 25 year old E46 with 96K miles on it has ZERO seepage on its cam cover gasket. I directly attribute this to opening the hood and using a fan when I park them after they've been driven. The reduction in heat soak has to be significant.

Scott

Edit: I haven't driven the E46 much the last two years. I change the oil every January. The last two oil changes were done with under 700 miles on the oil. The horror!

I knew we were kindred spirits, I do the same kind of things. I do fall short, however, of washing and cleaning my suspension/undercarraige to the extent you do though. Maybe if we had your weather year round I could do more. And you KNOW what to do with the 330 .

 

[Urshurak776]

I don't believe in worrying about something you have zero control over. Either you change your oil, or you don't. If there is merit to this thread topic, is it as much wear as NOT changing your oil at a reasonable OCI?

I doubt anyone on this board is going to stop doing oil changes, so......yeah. Don't lose sleep over it. 5 pages of much ado about nothing. My .02.

 

[BHopkins]

I don't believe in worrying about something you have zero control over. Either you change your oil, or you don't. If there is merit to this thread topic, is it as much wear as NOT changing your oil at a reasonable OCI?

I doubt anyone on this board is going to stop doing oil changes, so......yeah. Don't lose sleep over it. 5 pages of much ado about nothing. My .02.

Being one that loves data, particularly sound data, and puts much more faith in data than opinions, I tend to lean towards there being something to this. But I also believe, as pointed out earlier, that the difference isn't significant enough to cause concern.

That said, I often think of this study when one of the many short OCI vs long OCI discussions pops up here. I suspect you are spot on, that the study will barely move the needle, if at all, on the OCI debate here. The short OCI camp members are going to discount this as junk science, as it doesn't fit with the reasons that they believe in a short OCI, while the long OCI members are going to use it as extra justification for their decision. The only ones who may be swayed, are those who are not yet members of one camp or the other.

So, yea. Do what you do. There are so many other factors in engine wear, many that are in our control.

 

[shortyb]

I don't believe in worrying about something you have zero control over. Either you change your oil, or you don't. If there is merit to this thread topic, is it as much wear as NOT changing your oil at a reasonable OCI?

I doubt anyone on this board is going to stop doing oil changes, so......yeah. Don't lose sleep over it. 5 pages of much ado about nothing. My .02.

So, would that be with a "thick" xW-30 or a "thin" xW-40? IN for another 5 pages .

 

[slo town]

I knew we were kindred spirits, I do the same kind of things. I do fall short, however, of washing and cleaning my suspension/undercarraige to the extent you do though. Maybe if we had your weather year round I could do more. And you KNOW what to do with the 330 .

Yep, having dry roads almost every day of the year helps preserve the undercarriage!

Scott

 

[TimeFlies]

Your vehicles love you!

A confirmation of your tactics... During the hot summer months after driving one of our German cars I open the hoods when they get parked in the garage. I even put a fan in front of the grill. I think this is a good way of preserving underhood wiring, vacuum tubing, and coolant hoses.

The notoriously leak prone cam cover gaskets on our BMWs - the E90 finally started leaking at 115K, which is well beyond the point that most start leaking. And my bought new by me 25 year old E46 with 96K miles on it has ZERO seepage on its cam cover gasket. I directly attribute this to opening the hood and using a fan when I park them after they've been driven. The reduction in heat soak has to be significant.

Scott

Edit: I haven't driven the E46 much the last two years. I change the oil every January. The last two oil changes were done with under 700 miles on the oil. The horror!

Awesome!!!

I'm not as concerned about a tiny bit of fuel, as I am about blowing a head gasket, or worse.
My trucks can idle till water temp is up to 50 C.

 

[TomYoung]

Automotive air filters do better after an initial layer of dirt forms.
I believe this phenomenon was conceptually applied to newly-in-service oil filters.

Also, the old practice of including 2 Tablespoons of ash tray sand to fresh oil may have lead many to believe the notion behind the OP's
query.

That’s a ridiculous practice

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

You guys are free to disbelieve whatever you want. There have been several SAE and other research papers that have proven this phenomenon is in fact real, and occurs in measurable fashion.

 

[bullwinkle]

Just push those oil changes out until 5K (unless you have a GDI engine)-that way you have money for a transmission rebuild, electrical repairs, and all the other things that will inevitably occur while the engine continues purring happily along. That's where my xB is, things falling off, engine still perfect @ 130K!

 

[KrisZ]

It’s nothing to worry about, that’s for sure. It’s more of an academic discussion than anything else.

 

[meep]

It's been covered pretty well, but the theory is based on a study that found a spike in wear rates initially after an oil change. This was not measured with a UOA but rather detailed profiles of the metal surface and tribofilm thickness. ZDDP is an acidic ester. ZDDP tribofilms are thus also slightly acidic. Detergents are acid neutralizers. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how they hate each other. Detergents, especially when fresh, will overpower ZDDP until sufficient heat and load activates the ZDDP. Thus, chemical stripping of the anti-wear films occur until that point.

This is also the basis behind not using common shelf oils for break-in oil. Even with additional ZDDP added, with its reactivity subdued by high amounts of detergents, ZDDP won't be as effective until it reaches sufficient heat and load. This is a big part of why dedicated break-in oils exist, to make ZDDP the star of the show and get everything else out of its way.

That said, this is not something anyone should lose any sleep over. In the grand scheme of things, the effect this has on overall wear throughout the life of the engine is very small to moot. It's an interesting phenomenon (at least to me it is) but irrelevant to most.

Don't take oil advice from mechanics. Most of them don't even know what the "W" in a multi-grade stands for, much less the complex reaction of conflicting chemistry in elastohydrodynamic lubrication regimes. It's like asking a McDonalds fry cook how Gordon Ramsey achieves the perfect sear on a ribeye.

This. Yes, this is what I was thinking of that was kicked around years ago. Spike in wear metals right after OC, based on measured data.

 

[grampi]

Read it right here on this forum.
Which is why I am asking for clarification.

I've seen it too and I think it's pure BS...

 

[justalubetech]

I notice in the PDF about tribofilms, all of the sources posted are all pretty old (mainly early 90's and a couple 70's) and talking about (mostly) ZDDP - is there any newer studies on this? Seeing how a lot of newer oils have gone away from it or very small amounts

 

[OVERKILL]

I notice in the PDF about tribofilms, all of the sources posted are all pretty old (mainly early 90's and a couple 70's) and talking about (mostly) ZDDP - is there any newer studies on this? Seeing how a lot of newer oils have gone away from it or very small amounts

No oils have gone away from ZDDP that are being used in volume today. What has happened is that ZDDP (well, phosphorous really) has been restricted by the API to reduce the likelihood of catalyst poisoning, and by the ACEA (though less restricted) to reduce the likelihood of GPF degradation.

ZDDP is still the primary AW additive in all ready available engine oils. But work has been done on formulation to aide in making ZDDP more effective by including complimentary compounds. Infineum for example, did a study on trimer moly to show how it reduces wear, being complimentary to ZDDP.

 

[OVERKILL]

I've seen it too and I think it's pure BS...

Well, now that the resident tribological authority has weighed-in, the matter is clearly settled. Disband the SAE folks!

 

[ZeeOSix]

ZDDP is still the primary AW additive in all ready available engine oils. But work has been done on formulation to aide in making ZDDP more effective by including complimentary compounds. Infineum for example, did a study on trimer moly to show how it reduces wear, being complimentary to ZDDP.

It would be interesting to see a current study like the referenced PDF on tribofilms since today's oils are thinner and therefore rely more on the AF/AW additives and the tribofilm (ie, the film strength) when the MOFT can run thinner and may go to zero more often.

 

[OVERKILL]

It would be interesting to see a current study like the referenced PDF on tribofilms since today's oils are thinner and therefore rely more on the AF/AW additives and the tribofilm (ie, the film strength) when the MOFT can run thinner and may go to zero more often.

Agreed, would be interesting to see if these synergistic relationships between ZDDP and other compounds reduce the impact of introducing fresh detergent chemistry with an oil change. Would also be interesting to see if the reduction in calcium as the primary detergent and the switch to magnesium also has an impact.

 

[OVERKILL]

It would be interesting to see a current study like the referenced PDF on tribofilms since today's oils are thinner and therefore rely more on the AF/AW additives and the tribofilm (ie, the film strength) when the MOFT can run thinner and may go to zero more often.

Somewhat tangential, but found some interesting quotes on the impact that calcium-based detergents have on reducing the effectiveness of ZDDP, and their impact on ZDDP tribofilms:

A number of suggestions explaining the antagonistic effect of OBCaSul are as follows; OBCaSul inhibits the formation of a ZDDP film due to the formation of a colloid dispersion with ZDDP [32]. OBCaSul competition with ZDDP at the contact surface in the formation of a tribofilm, the OBCaSul breaks down to form carbonate, which is deposited on the metal surface [33]. It has been shown from multiple surface techniques that Ca displaces the Zn polyphosphates in the AW film [34,35], OBCaSul may inhibit polyphosphate chain formation by formation of Ca phosphate [36]

The calculated film thickness from these images, summarized in Fig. 10, confirms that the thickness of the tribofilm after 1-2 h of rubbing is around 41 nm for the neat lubricant (Base þZDDP), whereas the formulated oil (SLB) showed a final film thickness of 28 nm at 70°C. These results agree with the trend already noted in the literature of reduction of the tribofilm thickness when other additives, in particular dispersants, are present in the oil formulation [21,36]

Phosphorous and sulfur L- and K-edge X-ray absorption near edge structure (XANES) spectra were recorded to characterize the surface chemistry of the tribofilms derived from a commercial zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) and its blends with overbased calcium and magnesium salicylate detergents. The results show that the chemical structure of the tribofilms generated from the mixture of ZDDP and detergents is different from that of the tribofilm derived from ZDDP alone. However, the two kinds of detergents inhibit ZDDP from forming tribofilm, producing thinner polyphosphate films. Though XANES analysis does not provide definite evidence to the existence of magnesium element in the tribofilms, it is likely that calcium or magnesium has been incorporated therein. Moreover, ion exchange reaction and the formation of zinc polyphosphate film may occur simultaneously during sliding. However, calcium or magnesium (poly)phosphates do not contribute to reduce friction and wear of a steel–steel pair.

The sulfur L-edge and K-edge XANES spectra (not shown) also clearly indicated that Ca phenates with bridging S break down during the rubbing. Sulfur in the film appears in the forms of sulfide, sulfite and sulfate. These results suggest that ZDDP and detergents interact in the course of tribofilm formation and metals from detergents (Ca and Mg) are partially substituted for Zn. We will show that this interaction causes to deteriorate the wear protection of ZDDP. The chemistry of the tribofilm is correlated with the WSD measurement. 125 130 135 140 145 150 155 (F) Tribofilm of ZDDP+Ca Phenate (TBN=250) Tribofilm of ZDDP To ta l E le ct ro n Yi el d( ar b. un its ) Photon Energy (eV) (E) Mg3(PO4)2 Tribofilm of ZDDP+Mg sallicylate (TBN=270) (D) (C) (B)