Please Explain to me how changing the oil, increases wear for the next 1,000 miles

[BHopkins]

I'm sure someone else can explain it better than me. But here is my go at trying to explain it.

There are additives in motor oil that are designed to protect the engine from wear. Some bond to the metal surfaces inside the engine. The additives in new motor oil are very aggressive at cleaning the engine, to the point that they start cleaning off this protective layer, from the metal surfaces.

It takes much longer for the protective additives in the new motor oil, to bond to the metal surfaces, than it does for the cleaners to clean.

Thus, the theory is that there is a period when the engine is not protected as well, until the new additives complete bonding to the metal surfaces. That's the theory at least.

Some people have used this study to claim that longer a oil change interval results in less engine wear, as the engine is less frequently exposed to this "1000 mile" higher wear period. Others have said that the study is not entirely sound.

 

[KGMtech]

Just when you think you're pretty smart, you realize it's all a fraud.

 

[Patman]

The study was done by BITOG member 3 Mad Ponchos, alas, the old website no longer exists and I couldn't find any recent version in Internet Archive either. Maybe someone saved it locally?

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/amsoil-winding-down-what-next.50544/

Anytime someone links up to a really old thread in here it saddens me to see how many members aren’t still posting here (and some that passed away)

 

[cptbarkey]

Please explain to me like I am a stupid 2 year old, how changing the oil, increases wear for the next 1,000 miles?

No, a 2 year old wouldnt understand. Read this article, then come back and explain what you now know and the answer.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis-how-to-decide-what-is-normal/

 

[ARCOgraphite]

It's like trying to get that X-BOX series X when its 25% off on black friday and the doors bust open and hundreds run right to that aisle. things aint getting taken care of without some bruising, many are going home disappointed.

Versus March of the next year, stroll in and there are only two people in the same aisle (playing Mario Kart) and you can grab an open box unit for 45% off.

Oil has goodies in it and a lot of extra goodies when new. There is surface competition in rubbing areas where the EP lives and things can sometimes take a while to calm down and everybody be playing position and not bullying and being a hero.

Fact of Life, you Gotta change oil. Just don't overdo it. Also I would doubt that an engine would succumb to a compulsive early oil change "extra wear rate".

p.s.: My best UOA's were at around 9K miles - but special circumstances apply since that was a high speed highway long tripper. I only drive 5k miles a year now, and I now perform seasonal Spring and Fall oil changes regardless of mileage. Usually at 2200 miles and 45% oil life (per the FORD DIC OLM readout)

enjoy the Drive!

 

[bullwinkle]

The ZDDP (zinc diakyldithiophosphate) requires heat & pressure to bond to engine surfaces, it forms a thin glassy layer (mainly on bearings, camshafts, & other high pressure lubricated areas)-and fresh oil scrubs it off, the layer takes a while to reform. The ZDDP EP layer fills in surface asperities & provides a hardened sacrificial layer that helps prevent cold start metal-on-metal contact. So, if you change your oil, and immediately get the engine hot, the ZDDP layer will start reforming. Or, if one changes the oil, & does a bunch of short trips without getting everything to operating temperature… Well, shouldn’t be too tough to figure out!

 

[Vercingetorix]

Dammed if you do, dammed if you don’t.

 

[ripcord]

I think there is a problem with the methodology of the so-called tests that show wear increases during the first thousand miles.

What normally happens when you don't change your oil often enough? You get sludge build up. My hypothesis is that wear metals precipitate out of suspension and into that sludge and make it look like the rate of wear decreases as the oil ages. Then, when you change the oil, the fresh detergents "unstick" some of that sludge and particulates and that shows up as early increased wear metals found in used oil analysis.

 

[martinq]

Eons ago I recall someone doing this on a Camaro... ran oil for 15k but sampled & UOA every 1k. LS motor running Mobil 1 if memory is working. Spike in wear metals after oil change? actually I think the ppm increase at each sample time was less with miles. If there was 10ppm after 1k, it was like 15ppm at 2k, 17ppm at 3k, 18ppm at 4k, 19ppm at 5k, something like that.

Not even sure where I'd look to find that. Dim recesses of the mind, more than a decade ago.

Something about it takes heat and pressure to activate the additives. But ultimately it was ppm level of findings, not "it's sandpaper in the engine for the first 1,000 miles after each oil change, so change as little as possible".

I think I remember the same page / blog. If I remember correctly (good luck) they were seeing a spike after each oil change that would settle down before slowly increasing at the expected rate. It was repeatable and confusing but I don't recall if it was ever solved.

I don't remember which elements but I do remember the discussion and concern.

 

[factorytuned2012]

like a few have mentioned the fresh oil most likely cleans and breaks down any protective film strength that has bonded to metal surfaces. I would not over think this.

 

[Patman]

I think there is a problem with the methodology of the so-called tests that show wear increases during the first thousand miles.

What normally happens when you don't change your oil often enough? You get sludge build up. My hypothesis is that wear metals precipitate out of suspension and into that sludge and make it look like the rate of wear decreases as the oil ages. Then, when you change the oil, the fresh detergents "unstick" some of that sludge and particulates and that shows up as early increased wear metals found in used oil analysis.

I don’t think you are going to see much sludge at all with the latest oils, especially synthetics, unless you are really running them out way way too long. With the exception of some of the sludge prone Toyota engines, I seriously doubt that you would get any sludge buildup from 10,000 mile oil changes. I bet that the majority of engines that have a lot of sludge in them are the ones going 20k plus with inferior oils.

 

[BHopkins]

I think there is a problem with the methodology of the so-called tests that show wear increases during the first thousand miles.

What normally happens when you don't change your oil often enough? You get sludge build up. My hypothesis is that wear metals precipitate out of suspension and into that sludge and make it look like the rate of wear decreases as the oil ages. Then, when you change the oil, the fresh detergents "unstick" some of that sludge and particulates and that shows up as early increased wear metals found in used oil analysis.

You have sludge? How long is your OCI?

 

[OVERKILL]

I think there is a problem with the methodology of the so-called tests that show wear increases during the first thousand miles.

What normally happens when you don't change your oil often enough? You get sludge build up. My hypothesis is that wear metals precipitate out of suspension and into that sludge and make it look like the rate of wear decreases as the oil ages. Then, when you change the oil, the fresh detergents "unstick" some of that sludge and particulates and that shows up as early increased wear metals found in used oil analysis.

What's being discussed isn't "wear" in the sense of "oh my God, you are wearing your engine out!", it's observation as to the impact of oil changes on the establishment and maintenance of tribofilms with respect to wear. Effectively, the observation is that when you change the oil, the fresh chemistry strips off the existing tribofilms (ZDDP, moly plating...etc) as the new ones work to establish themselves and during this period, wear increases because the effectiveness of the tribofilms during this transitionary period are reduced until the new chemistry is fully established.

 

[ripcord]

Skeptical

 

[ATex7239]

You’re letting the magical engine fairies out who protect the engine. Now go to bed.

 

[Patman]

I think at the end of the day a lot of people need to realize that changing your oil at 1000 or 2000 or even 3000 miles is really not going to make the engine last any longer than if you were changing the oil every 5-10k. This is assuming that you’re using a quality synthetic that has the approvals for your application and that the engine is in good health. I know it makes people feel all warm and fuzzy to have fresh oil in there all the time but it’s really just a waste of time and money.

 

[OVERKILL]

Skeptical

Here's a previous thread on it:

Thread 'Tribofilms: Aspects of Formation, Stability and Removal'

Mar 14, 2023

This paper seems to support that introducing an oil with a different formulation to an already formed tribofilm can have an almost instant effect on the already formed tribofilm - seems to be due to the partial removal/stripping of the existing tribofim, then a rebuilding of a new tribofilm (and a corresponding new friction level) depending on the new oil formulation. Formed tribofilms have a stability factor, and seems both mechanical and chemical means can remove them. A tribofilm is constantly being built and removed, and it's important that the build-up rate is higher than the removal...

• ZeeOSix
• Replies: 2
• Forum: Interesting Articles

• 

 

[DirectRejection]

Here's a previous thread on it:

Thread 'Tribofilms: Aspects of Formation, Stability and Removal'

Mar 14, 2023

This paper seems to support that introducing an oil with a different formulation to an already formed tribofilm can have an almost instant effect on the already formed tribofilm - seems to be due to the partial removal/stripping of the existing tribofim, then a rebuilding of a new tribofilm (and a corresponding new friction level) depending on the new oil formulation. Formed tribofilms have a stability factor, and seems both mechanical and chemical means can remove them. A tribofilm is constantly being built and removed, and it's important that the build-up rate is higher than the removal...

• ZeeOSix
• Replies: 2
• Forum: Interesting Articles

• 

Consistency and extended OCIs can have their benefits.

 

[OVERKILL]

Consistency and extended OCIs can have their benefits.

To a point yes, there's also a point at which the tribofilms degrade as the AW and FM additives hit a breakdown point where they are no longer able to replenish/sustain the tribofilms at their established levels. Unfortunately, this is not easy to ascertain, that is, the point at which this takes place. Obviously, if pushed too far wear will increase to the point where it shows up in spectrography, but knowing where that OCI "sweet spot" is I think is nary impossible to determine.

 

[Lockasiam]

I’ve been on this forum since before y2k (though under a different handle after something got messed up). I’ve heard this discussed going back decades. Seems like there was a study quoted 15 years ago that cited it.

Wasn’t this website made in 2002? Or am I missing something