Older workers increase productivity...

[OneEyeJack]

Those younger programmers were not versed in the fundamentals of their trade. They were in the process of trying to skip up to the higher pay grades of their trade without putting in the time and effort required by those that went before them. Once something got away from how their programming tools worked they were stuck. They did not do a good job of embedding specialty code into .Net code. Assembler was needed to address hardware directly and that was the end of their programming. There were also calls made to other systems and they screwed that up as well. They left ambiguous remarks in the code that they could not decipher later when going before their own code review meetings. When the old guys where called back as contractors many of the problems were solved by installing backups from before the wiz kids took over. That alone wiped out almost all the bugs.

There was also a legacy system that was running on dedicated hardware that they messed up and could not get the backup to install. Five days were spent with no success. There was no need to touch this system but they could not resist trying to "improve" it. All the older programmers were smart enough to leave it alone. It was working just fine as is until then. One of the old obsolete programmers called back as a contractor fixed the system in one day along with recovering all the lost data.


Evidently school taught these new guys how much they were worth but skipped over the part where they pay their dues and learn their way around the real world before they touch production code.

 

[daves87rs]

It's tough to say, but I think it comes from all sides......


Older workers being punished by wall street for costing too much. Expecting to hire young in for next to nothing and expecting them to take the job seriously. Quite often it's not about the worker-it's about the money....

I'm kinda stuck in the middle, trying to get out of retail. Everybody is cutting and gutting, taking a beating from online shopping. The company I work for is known for their customer service, but with less people and stockholders who expect a good payout-it's not going to happen. And here it is not a generation thing, as I see the young struggle to make themselves better.....though I still can run circles around those half my age....

Another issue are the temps....not just for christmas anymore. I've seen quite a few folks dumped before their 90 days were up...


While I'm a little bit up there, I hope I can get back to doing something I love-helping folks. One of the big reasons I hoping for a recruiter position-so I can help those of all ages! The days of doing that are ending at my job...and it makes me sad. Even worse for those under me who I could inspire....

Older workers are still truly needed in all fields, or it's just going to be an expensive mess......

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
Although the military may instill discipline and responsibility. It also takes away being innovative and creates rule followers and people who do not want to venture outside the box. Younger generation lacks work ethics and pride in work. Alot of it comes from management. People taken straight from college and put in management positions lack the understanding of good employees. They look at profits per people. Last company y I left simply tried to spread training to keep pays down and keep employees from leaving to other companies. When you get management like this coupled with poor work ethics, it's no wonder you have the perfect mess.
So what was the MOS which made you such an expert on how the military works? In WWII, American tankers could repair their tanks under a tree, Germans had to send then back to the depot.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: HemiHawk
Originally Posted By: grampi
Not all of them, but the vast majority of the younger generation in general has a poor work ethic...I think EVERYONE should serve 4 years in the military right out of high school. The military instills self discipline, which is a key factor in attaining a good work ethic...


Honestly, the vast majority of the older generations have poor work ethic. They feel superior to younger generations at every turn, and barely do enough work to get by. Not everyone 40+ is some super worker who would sacrifice everything to better the company. Most are just here for the 9-5, do as little as possible and go home.

I'd say there are outliers in both groups.

For everyone ragging on Millennials, here is a neat video with a couple laughs breaking down the issues with the generational labeling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HFwok9SlQQ



Nonsense. I see far more worthless employees in the younger age groups than I do the older ones.


Since we do not churn employees here we have some limited experience in hiring folks. Our job is inside sales and then fulfillment, too. I would tend to agree that younger folks are more problematic. Many just think you should mail them the money! Many are seemingly unwilling to pay their dues and EARN their way up the ladder by out-working their competitors.

But a small minority of them are hungry and ready to work. Those are still out there, they are just much harder to find...

 

[ls1mike]

Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
Although the military may instill discipline and responsibility. It also takes away being innovative and creates rule followers and people who do not want to venture outside the box.


Also nonsense. Employees with prior military service are far better employees than those who never served in the military in every aspect...

This.

You think when a submarine goes to sea and gets separated from EVERYTHING we are not innovative in problem solving or venturing outside the box to get the job done? Sure we follow rules, get a hair cut, show up on time, do your job (which I might add are all very good things). But we have a lot of room in the decision making process and how things get done.
I am guessing you did not spend a lot of time in the Military.

 

[HemiHawk]

Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
Although the military may instill discipline and responsibility. It also takes away being innovative and creates rule followers and people who do not want to venture outside the box.


Also nonsense. Employees with prior military service are far better employees than those who never served in the military in every aspect...


Like my deadbeat ex roommate who couldn't hold a job longer than 6 months, didn't pay his bills, and hid his cars from being repossessed? Who happened to be in the Army for 4 years? So every last person who has served is a better worker? 100% false. Its like anything else. The people that served that wanted to serve, and do good, and learn, are probably amazing people and workers. People who served "just cause" or because they had nothing else going on, probably came out no different.

I love all the sweeping generalizations here. Its also funny hearing everyone complain about the "younger" generation as if every last person under 30 is lazy. WHO RAISED THEM?? That's the funny thing. People comment and say "Mommy said they were special", so who is at fault for these young people? HMM

 

[bdcardinal]

Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Those younger programmers were not versed in the fundamentals of their trade. They were in the process of trying to skip up to the higher pay grades of their trade without putting in the time and effort required by those that went before them. Once something got away from how their programming tools worked they were stuck. They did not do a good job of embedding specialty code into .Net code. Assembler was needed to address hardware directly and that was the end of their programming. There were also calls made to other systems and they screwed that up as well. They left ambiguous remarks in the code that they could not decipher later when going before their own code review meetings. When the old guys where called back as contractors many of the problems were solved by installing backups from before the wiz kids took over. That alone wiped out almost all the bugs.

There was also a legacy system that was running on dedicated hardware that they messed up and could not get the backup to install. Five days were spent with no success. There was no need to touch this system but they could not resist trying to "improve" it. All the older programmers were smart enough to leave it alone. It was working just fine as is until then. One of the old obsolete programmers called back as a contractor fixed the system in one day along with recovering all the lost data.


Evidently school taught these new guys how much they were worth but skipped over the part where they pay their dues and learn their way around the real world before they touch production code.


I have seen monumental amount of junk software being released lately. For the longest time Mazda had SnapOn make their parts catalog. A year or so ago they pulled the contract and Mazda makes it themselves. The Mazda made one is complete junk. The one SnapOn made worked flawlessly. We switched our Ford catalog from Infomedia Systems which was alright at best, but very buggy, to the SnapOn Ford EPC. Again the SnapOn one is a lot better. They even sent a guy out for a few days to show us all the features of the software. The dude was obviously an old computer guy as he knew everything and was geeking out on my Alienware laptop that I was using while my work one was fixed.

Our dealer management software is from a company called DealerTrack. Their software is also junk at best. When we call for technical assistance the response is always "you will have to develop a workaround to your issue on your end."

 

[Doog]

When it comes to work ethic there is only one statistic that consistently holds true especially in sales people.

It is called the 80/20 rule

20% of the people produce 80%of the sales in any organization
while the remaining 80% produce 20% of the sales.

Therefore:
the top 20% live on 80% of the money
while the remaining 80% of the people just get by on 20% of money.

whenever you see someone who is "pro union" it's not hard to guess which group they are in.

age/race/gender/ethnicity/health/good looks etc etc......has NOTHING to do with it.

 

[3800Series]

Originally Posted By: grampi
Not all of them, but the vast majority of the younger generation in general has a poor work ethic...I think EVERYONE should serve 4 years in the military right out of high school. The military instills self discipline, which is a key factor in attaining a good work ethic...


Can you really blame them? I love this country and I remember as a kid my father working part time as a carpenter we owned 2 fairly new vehicles for the time, 1 horse, the house, and 10 acres all off his part time work.

When I hit 18 I was laying brick and block. It took me many years but I've honed they skill. It was manual labor but it paid good when I was a relatively young age. By the time I started second guessing my career choice.. let me rephrase that by the time my body stopped agreeing with me it was all I ever knew how to do.

I grew up in the generation where 1 percent could support the whole family part time fairly comfortable.

My kids grew up as the generation where most family's had both parents working and in several cases just scraping by.

I can't really blame them for the lack of enthusiasm about it. I'm 57 and I've worked more 7-12's years straight then half the men 10 years older then me. The country is hurting, the people are hurting.

20 is still a child anyways. Its not like responsibility hit us all at 18 and we started saving money and paying morgages it's something we learned along the way and I'm sure our fathers generation could say the same about us at 20.

Yes some are just plain lazy but I know more then a few my age who have been that their whole life. I hate to see people think so little of the coming generation as most of use where in that same spot at some point.

 

[DBMaster]

In corporations, working hard and doing a good job just might get you rewarded with MORE work for little or no extra pay. OR, they might promote you to a level above your competence in which case you are then dog do-do and need to be culled. I believe people should do a good job and earn their pay, but what we have now is a rather twisted system. Companies are still expecting the levels of productivity that they saw in 2009 after many rounds of layoffs. The rewards for pushing workers like that may include a better bottom line, but quality and service suffers. It also disenfranchises a vast number of employees. Rag on the younger people if you will, but they are keen observers. It reminds me of how I observed the rewards reaped by the "yuppies" of the 1980's. All of their hard work was repaid with broken homes and massive layoffs in the early 90's.

 

[Panzerman]

Originally Posted By: grampi

Although the military may instill discipline and responsibility. It also takes away being innovative and creates rule followers and people who do not want to venture outside the box.

Also nonsense. Employees with prior military service are far better employees than those who never served in the military in every aspect...


That is a total crock. They want you to believe that and hire them, but I have seen too many instances where that is not the case. Recently a prospering gun store decided to only hire ex military, no one even goes in there anymore. It's failing terriable. If they didn't have it in the army. It doesn't exist mentality. I see constant lack of decision making when put in positions that require it. I am not saying all military people are bad employees, but not all are the absolute best either. I think alot get conditioned to follow directions only.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
Although the military may instill discipline and responsibility. It also takes away being innovative and creates rule followers and people who do not want to venture outside the box. Younger generation lacks work ethics and pride in work. Alot of it comes from management. People taken straight from college and put in management positions lack the understanding of good employees. They look at profits per people. Last company y I left simply tried to spread training to keep pays down and keep employees from leaving to other companies. When you get management like this coupled with poor work ethics, it's no wonder you have the perfect mess.


Some I agree with, but not all.

A couple of likely apocryphal quotes from German and former Soviet leadership can be found here:

http://www.military-quotes.com/funny-quotes.htm

"The reason the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices it on a daily basis."
- from a post-war debriefing of a German General

One of the serious problems in planning the fight against American doctrine, is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine...
- From a Soviet Junior Lt's Notebook

Sure, there are standards and training and somethings that are suggested to be done "by the book."

But I can tell you that any innovation that works is supported.

You can't have a rifleman deciding what hill to take. But once given the task to take that hill, he can employ any means at his disposal to do so.

The US military gives its local commanders a degree of freedom not enjoyed by other powerful armies.

Having served in uniform and in a variety of civilian jobs, one's degree of freedom is primarily determined by his leadership. If one's leadership values innovation, the leader will allow it. If not, then you must act per the leader's top down directions.

Bottom line, this is in no way unique to the military or government. There are plenty of civilian micro-managers who have no tolerance for innovation from their subordinates. There are plenty of military leaders who value and elicit innovation from those whom they lead.

 

[sleddriver]

Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: HemiHawk
Originally Posted By: grampi
Not all of them, but the vast majority of the younger generation in general has a poor work ethic...I think EVERYONE should serve 4 years in the military right out of high school. The military instills self discipline, which is a key factor in attaining a good work ethic...


Honestly, the vast majority of the older generations have poor work ethic. They feel superior to younger generations at every turn, and barely do enough work to get by. Not everyone 40+ is some super worker who would sacrifice everything to better the company. Most are just here for the 9-5, do as little as possible and go home.

I'd say there are outliers in both groups.

For everyone ragging on Millennials, here is a neat video with a couple laughs breaking down the issues with the generational labeling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HFwok9SlQQ

Nonsense. I see far more worthless employees in the younger age groups than I do the older ones.


My take is it all boils down to (1) Leadership (2) Training & (3) Maturity.

"Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime."

Sums it up pretty nicely: Give vs. Teach. Which leads to education. Rank, stats, grades, colleges, etc. look nice on paper, but then what? How many of the older generation grew up in Boy Scouts? On a ranch? Taking care of animals and machinery and learning to hunt & fish....and eat? Practical, common-sense-based education: Smarts.

The world was quite different then. I'm in my mid-50's and yet the world I grew up in no longer exists. There was far more time and encouragement to explore, think, digest, read, tinker, experiment, fly rockets & airplanes and learn by taking things apart, figuring out HOW they worked and WHY. And this was all outside of K-12 education. That was only a PART of the big-picture, not ALL of it like K-12 is trying to be today.

Further, not all of us were being "forced" to persue college so we could all be "equal". The SJW should shoulder the responsibility of their own actions and the consequential disaster that has followed. Many kids were railroaded into college where they didn't belong. Many would have been far better off learning a trade, earning some good money while paying their dues and building experience, rather than competing for MWJs after flunking out AND being burdened with a load of debt. THEN if they wanted to go to college LATER, they could make that choice on their own. Many of today's young adults are waking up to the fact they've been sold a financial house of cards, drawn by someone else. Vapor-ware: Nothing but a mirage.

Beware of being someone elses fool when they are using your skin, instead of their own, to ante up.

Reminds me of a Stephen Covey story about being in "The Wrong Jungle" The management guys are down below, managing the workers who are cutting through the jungle. The leader climbs to the top of the tallest tree and surveys the landscape. Then yells down below "WRONG JUNGLE". Whereby management yells back "SHUT UP. WE'RE MAKING PROGRESS."

Management's role is focused on climbing the ladder of success. Leadership's role is to see that the ladder is leaning against the right wall.

Everywhere these days we're suffering from the consequences of chronic wrong wall problems. In all fields. Where's the leadership?

Nature abhors a vacuum. So what rushes into the vacuum? Trivia, Q4, social media, "bling", time-wasters, fools errands, etc. This leads to Q1 problems and a reactive rather than proactive approach. Chaos, urgency, fighting fires while feeding the flames, etc. It quickly burns people out, they become disillusioned and seek escape to fill the void.

A Sign of The Times.........

 

[Mr Nice]

The military has some really great people and some terrible people...
A perfect example is Dennis Rader (the BTK killer) in Kansas and Jeffery Dahmer.

The trash you see in the civilian world also exists on US military bases across the globe.

 

[Mr Nice]

My boss thats an ex USAF officer likes to hire military, she says they understand her words and instructions are final. Really no need to question her decisions and game plan.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
Although the military may instill discipline and responsibility. It also takes away being innovative and creates rule followers and people who do not want to venture outside the box.


'zackerly...

I've yet to see one in the civilian workforce who is an independent thinker, and can direct his guys without recieving command from above.

Had to laugh in one of their faces when he marched into my office demanding "under what authority" I was making certain changes (which meant that he had to have a difficult conversation with his direct reports).

They DO have impressive important looking walks 'though.

 

[Shannow]

Actually, on reflection the guys who left up to about sergeant level do very well...the "leaders", who slot across into "management" positions not so well.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: HemiHawk
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
Although the military may instill discipline and responsibility. It also takes away being innovative and creates rule followers and people who do not want to venture outside the box.


Also nonsense. Employees with prior military service are far better employees than those who never served in the military in every aspect...


Like my deadbeat ex roommate who couldn't hold a job longer than 6 months, didn't pay his bills, and hid his cars from being repossessed? Who happened to be in the Army for 4 years? So every last person who has served is a better worker? 100% false. Its like anything else. The people that served that wanted to serve, and do good, and learn, are probably amazing people and workers. People who served "just cause" or because they had nothing else going on, probably came out no different.

I love all the sweeping generalizations here. Its also funny hearing everyone complain about the "younger" generation as if every last person under 30 is lazy. WHO RAISED THEM?? That's the funny thing. People comment and say "Mommy said they were special", so who is at fault for these young people? HMM





Why do you use sweeping generalizations in assuming I meant there are never any bad apples? There are always exceptions in every case, and this is no different, but the overwhelming majority of employees who are vets are going to be better employees than those with no prior military service...

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
Originally Posted By: grampi

Although the military may instill discipline and responsibility. It also takes away being innovative and creates rule followers and people who do not want to venture outside the box.

Also nonsense. Employees with prior military service are far better employees than those who never served in the military in every aspect...


That is a total crock. They want you to believe that and hire them, but I have seen too many instances where that is not the case. Recently a prospering gun store decided to only hire ex military, no one even goes in there anymore. It's failing terriable. If they didn't have it in the army. It doesn't exist mentality. I see constant lack of decision making when put in positions that require it. I am not saying all military people are bad employees, but not all are the absolute best either. I think alot get conditioned to follow directions only.


Maybe the ones who don't get promoted, but those who did have to make plenty of decisions...some life or death decisions...

 

[Jarlaxle]

The biggest prima donna I work with is ex-Army. He is a whining crybaby and EVERYONE knows it.