Oil for the track

Originally Posted by lowon
BTW: this is a UOA of pp after 3 track days and street use. What do you guys think?
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1681993

I did notice the shear stability (KV100) is kind of bad imo, it dropped over 1 point for just 2500 miles of use. Maybe the 3 track days did a number on that.

Calcium also looks really high, not sure if that is going to be bad for LSPI. But in the future I will be running E85 + water injection which should help with that, but for the time being it is still a factor.

I did see motul post on the porsche forum that the Xcess gen 2 was reformulated with LPSI reduction in mind. So another reason for me to just shell out the cash to change the oil after every track day.
 
Originally Posted by lowon
Originally Posted by lowon
BTW: this is a UOA of pp after 3 track days and street use. What do you guys think?
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1681993

I did notice the shear stability (KV100) is kind of bad imo, it dropped over 1 point for just 2500 miles of use. Maybe the 3 track days did a number on that.

Calcium also looks really high, not sure if that is going to be bad for LSPI. But in the future I will be running E85 + water injection which should help with that, but for the time being it is still a factor.

I did see motul post on the porsche forum that the Xcess gen 2 was reformulated with LPSI reduction in mind. So another reason for me to just shell out the cash to change the oil after every track day.


One really doesn't want to place too much emphasis on a single pass UOA. UOA's are all about trending rather than trying to determine the performance of engine oil from OCI to OCI. In addition on an engine with less than 50k miles it's not really going to provide a lot of useful information other than perhaps highlight a manufacturing defect.

On this particular sample there's nothing to be concerned about.

Side note: Ravenol has a LL04 racing oil.
 
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In the US BMW enthusiast community most everyone uses the term Bimmer for BMW cars, while in the UK the term Beemer is used. I see the term Beamer used mostly by used car lots that are trying to look like they know their BMWs- the same dealers that advertise that they have a V6 3 Series.

Originally Posted by Snagglefoot


You are recommending 5w30 as a track oil?




Take my experience with a grain of salt, as I've only been tracking BMWs since 1988- and instructing at track events since 1996. That said, 5W-30 has worked for me in my BMWs that called for it, as well as in my MS3. What oil do you use in your track car?
 
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by lowon
Originally Posted by lowon
BTW: this is a UOA of pp after 3 track days and street use. What do you guys think?
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1681993

I did notice the shear stability (KV100) is kind of bad imo, it dropped over 1 point for just 2500 miles of use. Maybe the 3 track days did a number on that.

Calcium also looks really high, not sure if that is going to be bad for LSPI. But in the future I will be running E85 + water injection which should help with that, but for the time being it is still a factor.

I did see motul post on the porsche forum that the Xcess gen 2 was reformulated with LPSI reduction in mind. So another reason for me to just shell out the cash to change the oil after every track day.


One really doesn't want to place too much emphasis on a single pass UOA. UOA's are all about trending rather than trying to determine the performance of engine oil from OCI to OCI. In addition on an engine with less than 50k miles it's not really going to provide a lot of useful information other than perhaps highlight a manufacturing defect.

On this particular sample there's nothing to be concerned about.

Side note: Ravenol has a LL04 racing oil.



True, but it is already hard to find UOA as it is - even harder for the same type of car on heavy track use, so I kind of get what I can get.


I would prefer LL01, but Ravenol is not easy to get either.



Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Seriously overthinking this. Go to CT and buy Castrol 0w40 and go have some fun.


Well better safe than sorry, I used to under look oil alot (I didn't care about weight, oil certifications, or anything my old mentality was thicker = better and follow the crowd) but not this time around. If I went to CT I would bet Penzzoil platnium euro 5w40, 0w40 iirc is only in 1L bottles and is expensive af and not really worth it.
 
Hmm, they must have recently stopped carrying it in the jugs. In that case I'd probably go with the Mobil version. Another two good options they carry are the Pennzoil Euro LX and Mobil 1 ESP, both 30 grades. Both will hold up for track duty no problem and have basically the same HTHS ratings as the 40 grades you're looking at.

Before I went to 50 grade I would use something like Redline 40 grade, but no approvals.

I wish I could say any of this would make a huge difference, but it's hard to know. Hopefully BMW started designing M engines so that rod bearings are not standard maintenance items. I would imagine there are enough OG M2's out there with some good track time that the answer is probably known at this point.
 
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Hmm, they must have recently stopped carrying it in the jugs. In that case I'd probably go with the Mobil version. Another two good options they carry are the Pennzoil Euro LX and Mobil 1 ESP, both 30 grades. Both will hold up for track duty no problem and have basically the same HTHS ratings as the 40 grades you're looking at.

Before I went to 50 grade I would use something like Redline 40 grade, but no approvals.

I wish I could say any of this would make a huge difference, but it's hard to know. Hopefully BMW started designing M engines so that rod bearings are not standard maintenance items. I would imagine there are enough OG M2's out there with some good track time that the answer is probably known at this point.





Yeah no jugs of castrol 0w40 anymore, just the crazy expensive 1L bottle that is $3 more per L compared to motul xcess gen 2.

Mobil1 does not have LL01 anymore, some do but not the ones at canadian tire.

If I were to buy pennzoil euro lx or mobil 1 esp which is not really easy to find I might as well just stick with penzoil platnium euro, since it is LL01 and really easy to find at Canadian tire and available for 1/2 off at times for a 5L jug so it is dirt cheap and easy to get.


Yes bmw updated to rod bearings on the n55 to the s55 bearings in 2014, they no longer are an issue - unless you track a non M n55 where you will get rod bearing failure due to oil starvation. If you have an M n55 like the m2 it has an upgraded semi dry sump with additional oil baffles making it capable of sustained 1.2 lateral and longitudinal G force. So no more rod bearing issues. I have never seen an m2 blow up on the track yet, the only exception was a really crappy tuned m2 which blew its piston rings.



On a side note before I blow a crap ton of money changing my oil every track day with motul xcess gen 2 5w40 I am curious if there was any kind of guide for appropriate HTHS ratings for track use at certain temps. I know a UOA would be the best indicator of this but still curious.
 
Originally Posted by lowon
Originally Posted by lowon
BTW: this is a UOA of pp after 3 track days and street use. What do you guys think?
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1681993

I did notice the shear stability (KV100) is kind of bad imo, it dropped over 1 point for just 2500 miles of use. Maybe the 3 track days did a number on that.

Calcium also looks really high, not sure if that is going to be bad for LSPI. But in the future I will be running E85 + water injection which should help with that, but for the time being it is still a factor.

I did see motul post on the porsche forum that the Xcess gen 2 was reformulated with LPSI reduction in mind. So another reason for me to just shell out the cash to change the oil after every track day.

Your engine will not have an issue with LSPI.
Also, from what I have seen so far Mobil1 holds KV100 best. However, their TBN tends to drop faster.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by lowon
Originally Posted by lowon
BTW: this is a UOA of pp after 3 track days and street use. What do you guys think?
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1681993

I did notice the shear stability (KV100) is kind of bad imo, it dropped over 1 point for just 2500 miles of use. Maybe the 3 track days did a number on that.

Calcium also looks really high, not sure if that is going to be bad for LSPI. But in the future I will be running E85 + water injection which should help with that, but for the time being it is still a factor.

I did see motul post on the porsche forum that the Xcess gen 2 was reformulated with LPSI reduction in mind. So another reason for me to just shell out the cash to change the oil after every track day.

Your engine will not have an issue with LSPI.
Also, from what I have seen so far Mobil1 holds KV100 best. However, their TBN tends to drop faster.


Thanks for your insight on LSPI.

Yeah I have read that on here too, but to counter act decreasing KV100 I will just lower OCI.

Ok my plan of action is getting penzzoil platnium euro 5w40 first and testing that out on the track, getting a UOA and if the wear levels are normal or better I will stick with this oil and assume HTHS is more than sufficent. If more wear is detected I will step up to a higher HTHS oil like motul xcess gen 2 5w40. Does this sound like a reasonable plan?
 
Originally Posted by lowon
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Hmm, they must have recently stopped carrying it in the jugs. In that case I'd probably go with the Mobil version. Another two good options they carry are the Pennzoil Euro LX and Mobil 1 ESP, both 30 grades. Both will hold up for track duty no problem and have basically the same HTHS ratings as the 40 grades you're looking at.

Before I went to 50 grade I would use something like Redline 40 grade, but no approvals.

I wish I could say any of this would make a huge difference, but it's hard to know. Hopefully BMW started designing M engines so that rod bearings are not standard maintenance items. I would imagine there are enough OG M2's out there with some good track time that the answer is probably known at this point.





Yeah no jugs of castrol 0w40 anymore, just the crazy expensive 1L bottle that is $3 more per L compared to motul xcess gen 2.

Mobil1 does not have LL01 anymore, some do but not the ones at canadian tire.

If I were to buy pennzoil euro lx or mobil 1 esp which is not really easy to find I might as well just stick with penzoil platnium euro, since it is LL01 and really easy to find at Canadian tire and available for 1/2 off at times for a 5L jug so it is dirt cheap and easy to get.


Yes bmw updated to rod bearings on the n55 to the s55 bearings in 2014, they no longer are an issue - unless you track a non M n55 where you will get rod bearing failure due to oil starvation. If you have an M n55 like the m2 it has an upgraded semi dry sump with additional oil baffles making it capable of sustained 1.2 lateral and longitudinal G force. So no more rod bearing issues. I have never seen an m2 blow up on the track yet, the only exception was a really crappy tuned m2 which blew its piston rings.



On a side note before I blow a crap ton of money changing my oil every track day with motul xcess gen 2 5w40 I am curious if there was any kind of guide for appropriate HTHS ratings for track use at certain temps. I know a UOA would be the best indicator of this but still curious.


The two oils I mentioned are available at CT for the same price as the Pennzoil you mention. The Mobil ESP might be a couple more bucks, of course only buy them when they go on sale. The LL04 oils are IMO a better choice than LL01. For a daily I would use LL04 all day every day but LL01 is fine for track use.

I saw earlier you mentioned the car does not have a cat? In this case it is obviously tuned so no real need to have actual approvals.
 
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by lowon
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Hmm, they must have recently stopped carrying it in the jugs. In that case I'd probably go with the Mobil version. Another two good options they carry are the Pennzoil Euro LX and Mobil 1 ESP, both 30 grades. Both will hold up for track duty no problem and have basically the same HTHS ratings as the 40 grades you're looking at.

Before I went to 50 grade I would use something like Redline 40 grade, but no approvals.

I wish I could say any of this would make a huge difference, but it's hard to know. Hopefully BMW started designing M engines so that rod bearings are not standard maintenance items. I would imagine there are enough OG M2's out there with some good track time that the answer is probably known at this point.





Yeah no jugs of castrol 0w40 anymore, just the crazy expensive 1L bottle that is $3 more per L compared to motul xcess gen 2.

Mobil1 does not have LL01 anymore, some do but not the ones at canadian tire.

If I were to buy pennzoil euro lx or mobil 1 esp which is not really easy to find I might as well just stick with penzoil platnium euro, since it is LL01 and really easy to find at Canadian tire and available for 1/2 off at times for a 5L jug so it is dirt cheap and easy to get.


Yes bmw updated to rod bearings on the n55 to the s55 bearings in 2014, they no longer are an issue - unless you track a non M n55 where you will get rod bearing failure due to oil starvation. If you have an M n55 like the m2 it has an upgraded semi dry sump with additional oil baffles making it capable of sustained 1.2 lateral and longitudinal G force. So no more rod bearing issues. I have never seen an m2 blow up on the track yet, the only exception was a really crappy tuned m2 which blew its piston rings.



On a side note before I blow a crap ton of money changing my oil every track day with motul xcess gen 2 5w40 I am curious if there was any kind of guide for appropriate HTHS ratings for track use at certain temps. I know a UOA would be the best indicator of this but still curious.


The two oils I mentioned are available at CT for the same price as the Pennzoil you mention. The Mobil ESP might be a couple more bucks, of course only buy them when they go on sale. The LL04 oils are IMO a better choice than LL01. For a daily I would use LL04 all day every day but LL01 is fine for track use.

I saw earlier you mentioned the car does not have a cat? In this case it is obviously tuned so no real need to have actual approvals.

HTHS on m1 esp is 3.5 which is lower than PPU so why would I pay more to get less? It also isnt even LL01.

LL04 is not recommended for gas powered bmw's in NA. I am also looking for a daily oil that can handle track time - tough requirements I know, but the whole reason why is so I don't have to flush the oil loop everytime which will be a huge hassle when the accusump arrives.


Correct no Cat. My question is do non LL01 oils have the correct additives and antioxidation resistance as LL01 oils? Because that is important for me since I plan to use this oil on the street too, and store it over winter and I do not want oxidation to damage the oil.

If it can handle those conditions then I can maybe look at redline 5w40.
 
A lot of your information is outdated. LL04 is (was) not approved because it doesn't play nice with sulfur in fuels. North America did not have ultra low sulfur gasoline until early 2017. That no longer applies today.

I recommended those oils because I know they can handle it without a problem. So can the 0w40 stuff. This has been proven time and time again. The oils I recommended are the same oil (at least the same approval) that comes in a Huracan Performante, for example.

If the car doesn't have a cat I'm not sure why you're so concerned with approvals. Warranty is null and void in that case anyway. If the oil is API approved none of your concerns about sitting around and what not are anything to be worried about.

I think I'll check out of this one since it seems you already have something in mind and aren't really open to other ideas. Good luck.
 
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
A lot of your information is outdated. LL04 is (was) not approved because it doesn't play nice with sulfur in fuels. North America did not have ultra low sulfur gasoline until early 2017. That no longer applies today.

I recommended those oils because I know they can handle it without a problem. So can the 0w40 stuff. This has been proven time and time again. The oils I recommended are the same oil (at least the same approval) that comes in a Huracan Performante, for example.

If the car doesn't have a cat I'm not sure why you're so concerned with approvals. Warranty is null and void in that case anyway. If the oil is API approved none of your concerns about sitting around and what not are anything to be worried about.

I think I'll check out of this one since it seems you already have something in mind and aren't really open to other ideas. Good luck.




Thanks for your insight.
 
Has anyone considered 10w60, such as BMW M TwinPower 10w60, which is the oil for certain M-engines?

It is currently being produced by Shell, but one can get it from its previous supplier, Castrol Edge (Supercar) 10w60
 
Personally I would go with a) what BMW recommends, b) to a forum that is more tailored to track and BMW discussion as they will have practical answers on what works. BMWs are very popular track cars, obviously, so folks will have experience with these motors. If it were me, I'd talk to my buddy that runs a major BMW dealer service department and tracks various BMWs as well as friends at a race shop that specializes in BMWs.
 
UG_Passat said:
Has anyone considered 10w60, such as BMW M TwinPower 10w60, which is the oil for certain M-engines?

It is currently being produced by Shell, but one can get it from its previous supplier, Castrol Edge (Supercar) 10w60
Click to expand...
On old M engines that were made for it, sure.

But on new M engines like the s55 or n55 in the m2 bad idea, because it is so thick the clearances especially on start up may not be sufficent leading to wear and tear. Especially if you look at the needle injectors for the bmw vavletronic system that oils the eccentric shaft, no way 10w60 could flow through that on start up. This is also a reason why I want LL01 oils because if the additives are crap it could clog this tiny nozzle up and cause the eccentric shaft to wear.
 
lowon said:
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by lowon
Originally Posted by lowon
BTW: this is a UOA of pp after 3 track days and street use. What do you guys think?
https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1681993

I did notice the shear stability (KV100) is kind of bad imo, it dropped over 1 point for just 2500 miles of use. Maybe the 3 track days did a number on that.

Calcium also looks really high, not sure if that is going to be bad for LSPI. But in the future I will be running E85 + water injection which should help with that, but for the time being it is still a factor.

I did see motul post on the porsche forum that the Xcess gen 2 was reformulated with LPSI reduction in mind. So another reason for me to just shell out the cash to change the oil after every track day.

Your engine will not have an issue with LSPI.
Also, from what I have seen so far Mobil1 holds KV100 best. However, their TBN tends to drop faster.


Thanks for your insight on LSPI.

Yeah I have read that on here too, but to counter act decreasing KV100 I will just lower OCI.

Ok my plan of action is getting penzzoil platnium euro 5w40 first and testing that out on the track, getting a UOA and if the wear levels are normal or better I will stick with this oil and assume HTHS is more than sufficent. If more wear is detected I will step up to a higher HTHS oil like motul xcess gen 2 5w40. Does this sound like a reasonable plan?
Click to expand...
Yeah, i would do that. Please post UOA so we can all see.
 
lowon said:
On old M engines that were made for it, sure.

But on new M engines like the s55 or n55 in the m2 bad idea, because it is so thick the clearances especially on start up may not be sufficent leading to wear and tear. Especially if you look at the needle injectors for the bmw vavletronic system that oils the eccentric shaft, no way 10w60 could flow through that on start up. This is also a reason why I want LL01 oils because if the additives are crap it could clog this tiny nozzle up and cause the eccentric shaft to wear.
Click to expand...
You're going to have to compromise somewhere. Good luck finding LL01, because even BMW USA doesn't sell them anymore. There isn't anything special about additives for a LL-01 license.

Go find yourself a good Group 4/5 base oil, that can take the punishment on the track.

Since oil temperature is your concern, why not upgrade your oil cooler?

Racing cars is an expensive hobby, so changing your oil before and after track days is part of the expense, just like brake pads and rotors, eventually your street pads may not be sufficient, and you're going to want something that will hold up to the track, but you're not going to get both daily driving and track day pads in one pad, something has to give.
 
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