Oil Filter Efficiency Study

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Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: 63Avanti
I have data only on EaO filters, next fix, I will make that clear.
Sorry for the Confusion

Yikes. What an upset. Those things were supposed to be the crème de la crème in terms of fine particle filtration...

His scale is based off information that he HAS, not real world or test information as to how all of these filters ACTUALLY do. No information = a bad score irregardless of whether the filter is good or not. This is a faulty "study" with no useful information.
 
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His scale is based off information that he HAS, not real world or test information as to how all of these filters ACTUALLY do. No information = a bad score irregardless of whether the filter is good or not. This is a faulty "study" with no useful information.


I agree, it appears to be an opinion test, based on the fact that in the study, conventional brands were rated above extended filters. Makes no sense to me.
 
Your opinion is exactly why I did the study.
Guess what!
Your opinion is NOT SUPPORTED by the companies you like.
Show me the data



Originally Posted By: Triple_Se7en
I agree that Pure Ones, Napa Golds, Bosch Premiums and Wix are "Silicone ADBV Best Buy Oil Filters". So are the few inexpensive Motorcraft models that have a silicone ADBV. Your ratings for Amsoil and Mobil-1 filters are way-off-base. These brands trap micron debris better than any other on your list. For the few that need this type of filtering demand, price is not an issue. For the other 90% of the population that doesn't need this intense of filtering for typical passenger vehicles of today, it's still their right to rate them the best.

Some here view a $20 bill the same way you may view $4 in value. Your idea of a star may not be their idea of a star... or vice-versa.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest

His scale is based off information that he HAS, not real world or test information as to how all of these filters ACTUALLY do. No information = a bad score irregardless of whether the filter is good or not. This is a faulty "study" with no useful information.

Your opinion is exactly why I did the study.
Guess what!
Your opinion is NOT SUPPORTED by the companies you like.
Show me the data
 
63Avanti[COLOR=#FF0000 said:
Your opinion is exactly why I did the study.
Guess what!
Your opinion is NOT SUPPORTED by the companies you like. What
Show me the data[/COLOR]
What company do I like? I'd ask you to show some data to support your findings as well since there is none in your "report". And please show me where my statement is incorrect.
smirk2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
I'd ask you to show some data to support your findings as well since there is none in your "report". And please show me where my statement is incorrect.
smirk2.gif


read all of the paper. it explains why no raw data is provided, and that all the available data was used, and that some well liked companies refused to provide data of any type. it is all in the paper, not certain why I am repeating this here.
 
Originally Posted By: 63Avanti
Well, about 3 months late, due to 2 surgeries, et.al.
Thanks for your patience and generous help in getting the data.

Finally collected it all in one place.
go to http://www.systems-engineering-associates.com/papers
and look for "avocation"
cool.gif



Oh man sorry for harassing you. Didn't know you were getting surgery also!! Yeah well now I'll show your paper to Amsoil and then hopefully they will publish the small particle numbers.

I kinda agree with the others - as a practical/real life filtration study, it really isn't all that. And lastly if you are going to include the full cost of the Amsoil filter, then you need to include the full cost of the other filters as well.

Really the whole study is a well laid out place holder.
 
I downloaded the document but when it opened up it was unreadable, all the letters looked like strange characters.
frown.gif
 
But engines usually last plenty long enough with any filter and the use the engine gets probably has more to due with longevity "long distance freeway miles or time or miles the engine is at operating temps " than any oil or filter used. The air filter is of the most importance.
 
Originally Posted By: 63Avanti
[read all of the paper. it explains why no raw data is provided, and that all the available data was used, and that some well liked companies refused to provide data of any type. it is all in the paper, not certain why I am repeating this here.

That's fine. If you are not going to put up any real numbers, don't expect anyone else to either. And all of your disclaimers have marginalized your results.

And for those that want data:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/846084/
 
As I said, "show me the data." I will add this to the study if I can get some added into to ensure that we are talking about the same ISO (there is only one legitimate one, but people like using the rescinded one as you can game the data. I am contacting the originator. If the test follows the letter of the ISO, and is done in a certified lab, count on it showing up in the paper
 
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I think we all need to take a step back and realize this effort for what it is.

Avanti's limitations and methodology are reasonably spelled out in his preceeding explinations. Too many people jump to the last chapter and don't like the ending. READ and you'll understand. I understand why he does not post raw data; I don't like it, but I understand it. If I want the data, I'll have to fetch it for myself. I see no reason why he would falsify his collected info; to what gain? Further, he's only using manufacturer's data, and his point to FTC involvement regarding credibility is as well founded as any other argument I could put forth for contention, so why fuss over it?

This is not unlike posting VOA's versus UOA's. It's a good jumping off point. It's not a clear analysis of a filter's performance, but then it doesn't claim to be; it is a synopsis of the POTENTIAL for perforamance of each filter, not the RESULT. In out daily lives, we all buy products with some amount of faith that the potential for good results are judged by the inputs we see, and then we hope for the best results. This "study" shows us where to BEGIN; this "study" shows us reasonable criteria to begin making rational decisions. It's not the "end all, be all" final last word.

This study isn't even a statistical one, so I can't nit-pick it from a quality engineer point of view. It's just a good overview based upon what he perceives as characteristics worth consideration.

And yes, I read Consumer Reports; they don't do statistical analysis of their tests either. But they do collect products, use a reasonable method based upon their perception of important characteristics for selective ranking, and make predictions based upon preliminary results. They give raw data for historical reliability, and that's good enough for me when I choose to buy a microwave, or TV, or whatever.

This study shows me what I suspected. I buy Wix/Napa Gold filters from Fleetfilter. They are a darn good filter for a darn good price. Are they the "best"? You'd have to define what "best" means to each person, so I'd say "no, they're not the best for every application". But, they are an undeniable good value with above-average performance.

If anyone wants a true "study" done with statistical analysis, I'll offer this: you provide all the time and money, for all the sample units, and the Particle Count analysis, under true quality-control clinical conditions, and I'll crunch the data. I have access to the computer programs, and the training to utilize the systems. I'll work with you to set up the methodology. But know this, for a true statistical analysis, we'll need a minimum of 30 filters for each design, run on identical vehciles in very similar circumstances, and then we'll need some well-qualified lab to do the PC, run on the same equipment by the same operator, ...

Start to get the picture? The enormity of the financial and time committments begins to become apparent. This is why filter companies use ISO standards for PC and beta results. Large companies have the time and money and resources to attain this type of data. So, Avanti used their data to rank the filters considered by his own critieria.

In light of the lack of MY money or time, I'll just use his synopsis as a good jumping-off point.
 
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I agree, and didn't think I was bagging on the study too much.

I do worry about a couple things, mainly (as you stated) the uninitiated taking too much away from this, when at this point, it doesn't mean a whole lot when someone is looking for the best filtration. We can't control what people think of course.

My other main gripe (other than with Amsoil for not publishing the under 15 micron numbers) is with the price. The costs of the other filters should include all the costs of procurement (gas, sales tax, etc) if the Amsoil filter is fully burdened with these costs! Many people live near Amsoil distribution centers (heck there is one in Penn.) and have no delivery charge, or order oil, etc at the same time so the delivery charge is negligible.

Let's see how this evolves. I fired off an email to Amsoil with the link.
 
There are a great many black dots on the list, primarily in the two filtering ranges. I can only make one of two assumptions, based on his statements in the footnotes. 1) the manufacturer put forth the requested data, and it was such as poor performing product that it warranted an all black score. 2)the manufacturer put forth no data, and he (appropriately) scored it all black, by his own reasoning in the footnotes.

With this in mind, I can then make a few more conclusions, BUT THIS IS ONLY VALID IN MY MIND; USE THIS REASONING AT YOUR OWN RISK. If a manufacturer chose not to supply the data, it would be for one of three reasons. 1) They don't have the data according to the ISO test standards in his study. 2) They have the data, but withheld it because they fear that their product might be mis-represented, or the data used in some litigation against their liking. 3) They have the data, but their product is inferior, and they don't want/need the bad exposure.

This is not a crime that is being investigated; it's one man trying to put together an intriguing article. The companies certainly have the right to "remain silent". But in their silence, they risk people making assumptions of their absence from the data-driven study, and in that void, people (being somewhat skeptical in mass) will fill it with negative connotations. That's just life and a relfection of society.

You really shouldn't look at the compilation list and assume that all those black dots mean most of these filters are poor, but that's exactly how most people will interprete it.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
I agree, and didn't think I was bagging on the study too much..... The costs of the other filters should include all the costs of procurement (gas, sales tax, etc) if the Amsoil filter is fully burdened with these costs! Many people live near Amsoil distribution centers (heck there is one in Penn.) and have no delivery charge, or order oil, etc at the same time so the delivery charge is negligible.


Pablo,
I have been lurking for ideas to make the study more usable. I am definitely going to think about derating the Amsoil price (with footnotes that will confuse the people who start complaining without reading first, sigh) It will change the "price" column to an "effective price" column, and you can see the dangers in that. I will definitely play with it and see if I can get a model which is reasonably bullet proof. If that happens, I will re-do the study, rewrite, and upload and post here.

that makes 2 good ideas...!
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
There are a great many black dots on the list, primarily in the two filtering ranges. I can only make one of two assumptions, based on his statements in the footnotes. 1) the manufacturer put forth the requested data, and it was such as poor performing product that it warranted an all black score. 2)the manufacturer put forth no data, and he (appropriately) scored it all black, by his own reasoning in the footnotes.


Assumption 1 is not true, though my footnotes did not provide any information to the contrary. I can state that ANY data would have resulted in a score off the bottom level. It took some tinkering with the model to give credit even to a poor filter over one without data.

To the degree that it makes any difference to anyone, the surgeries put some serious gaps in my work, but attempting to deal with the data in a fair manner also was part of the delay. I was (and am) disturbed by all the "black". I fully expected to see a visible "distribution" with a clustering near the top ratings. This was based on all the promotional literature we see here and elsewhere.

Re-working the models to remove "black", resulted in some serious distortions, and not giving some fine filters their credit. Therefore, other than the tinker to ensure that poor filters got at least one "green" to differentiate over "no data" all-black, I was unable to green-up the chart.
 
I have not indicated how the study affected my purchases. Now that people have had some time to study it, and a few even read the entire paper
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I indicate what I am doing; after all a cook should eat his own cooking!

I was surprised to see Wix at the top (second position). However, I expected it to fall in the second Quadrant, which as far as I am concerned is more than adequate quality for me as I do not keep vehicles over 250K, do not race, do not pull, or load, or run commercially. If Wix held up in the 2nd quadrant without significantly cheaper, easy to get, filters ranked over it, I would have felt fully justified in my patronage.

I use Wix, and buy in bulk. I like the construction, and that it is the easiest to buy at a good discount without waiting for a sale. My personal conclusion is that I will continue to buy Wix except when I can find a nice sale on PureOne, like the one at Amazon.com right now. Just bought a load of PureOne, cleaned Amazon.com out of one less-than-common version, with re-stock not scheduled until the end of the month
 
I can see now the dilema of the lower rankings for those filters that performed poorly versus those that didn't perform. I made the assumptions based upon your footnotes, which lead me to think that they were simply dumped into an all-encompassing tank at the bottom. That not being the case, my first set of assumptions were not correct. But, is it necessary to even sift out the poor, or non, -performers?

I don't know that it would change my opinions based upon the ultimate goal for me in using the info; that being "what filter is a strong performer for an affordable price?" Here, I'm pleased because Wix, which has been a brand I often purchase, placed well. I honestly don't think that Wix has the BEST filtration beta data, but then again, I'm looking for a "value", and I'm not willing to pay 3x or more for filtration that likely won't add value to my vehicle, based upon service life expectations.

I'm not going to worry much about which filters didn't perform well versus which didn't share data, because it's too hard to differentiate the bottom dwellers.

Not unlike sports, I could not care less about those who don't make the play-offs. My interest is, appropriately enough, focused on those 5 or 6 players that play the game by the rules, and have a shot at the title.
 
At best, the study offers a level comparison between filtration ratings of three filters. Since the “study” doesn’t add anything new in terms of construction or price, the “data” on the other 22 filters is of very little value.

Perhaps the value of the study could be increased somewhat if filters lacking the proper specified filtration data from the manufacturer were identified. As it is, there is no way to distinguish filters that have what the author classifies as “poor” filtration from filters for which he has no proper data. This suggests that filters whose filtration is considered poor by the author's rating method are just as good as those for which he has no proper data.
 
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