SAAMI doesn't recognize +P+ but it definitely exists and is loaded to higher pressure than +P usually. Additionally not every modern gun can handle it. Just take a look at this warning on gold dots 115 +p+ 
New S&W M&P 9mm Shield after 300 rounds
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That always made me laugh.... "For Law Enforcement Use Only" As if "law Enforcement" guns were stronger. Being old enough to have shot, and remember factory ammunition from the late 60's, and early 70's. All of it shot with far more authority than ANY ammo loaded today.......+P+ or otherwise. And there were no "warnings" on it anywhere. This was especially true with Magnum rifle and pistol ammunition.
I still have some old late 60's Remington .44 Magnum, 240 Gr. Lead Gas Check ammo in the green, white, and red boxes. That stuff was loaded so hot it made what Cor-Bon loads today look like it was loaded by a Buddhist Monk. There were no warnings on it anywhere. Weatherby Magnum factory ammo even more so. .340 Weatherby Magnum factory ammo from the early 70's, was loaded hotter than .338-378 Weatherby ammo is today. Factory .338-378 Weatherby ammo today is a $170.00 a box total joke. The only way you can achieve what that cartridge is capable of today, is by handloading it with military surplus powders.
If anyone needs further proof of how weak ammunition has gotten over the years, compare a handloading manual published in the 60's, to one published today. Compare bullet and charge weights to velocities, and everything published today is so diluted it's pathetic. This isn't because the guns have gotten weaker. But rather because the legal system in this country has gone completely off the rails. We didn't live in a sue crazy society then, like we do now. And no one was blowing up their guns either. If anything, today's guns are stronger than ever before. Modern metallurgy, along with steel manufacturing is producing far higher tensile strength materials, than were being produced back 50 years ago.
We just weren't plagued with an over abundance of sue crazy, ambulance chasing lawyers to deal with. And juries who sympathize with them. This is why we have warnings plastered over every box of ammo being produced. Not because of chamber pressure.... But rather legal pressure.
I still have some old late 60's Remington .44 Magnum, 240 Gr. Lead Gas Check ammo in the green, white, and red boxes. That stuff was loaded so hot it made what Cor-Bon loads today look like it was loaded by a Buddhist Monk. There were no warnings on it anywhere. Weatherby Magnum factory ammo even more so. .340 Weatherby Magnum factory ammo from the early 70's, was loaded hotter than .338-378 Weatherby ammo is today. Factory .338-378 Weatherby ammo today is a $170.00 a box total joke. The only way you can achieve what that cartridge is capable of today, is by handloading it with military surplus powders.
If anyone needs further proof of how weak ammunition has gotten over the years, compare a handloading manual published in the 60's, to one published today. Compare bullet and charge weights to velocities, and everything published today is so diluted it's pathetic. This isn't because the guns have gotten weaker. But rather because the legal system in this country has gone completely off the rails. We didn't live in a sue crazy society then, like we do now. And no one was blowing up their guns either. If anything, today's guns are stronger than ever before. Modern metallurgy, along with steel manufacturing is producing far higher tensile strength materials, than were being produced back 50 years ago.
We just weren't plagued with an over abundance of sue crazy, ambulance chasing lawyers to deal with. And juries who sympathize with them. This is why we have warnings plastered over every box of ammo being produced. Not because of chamber pressure.... But rather legal pressure.
The only reason I'm showing the warning label is to point out the numbers on it not the wording
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
The only reason I'm showing the warning label is to point out the numbers on it not the wording
I understand. But another thing you have to remember is over the years SAAMI pressures have been lowered..... A LOT. The "warning" on your box of current production Gold Dots states, they are.... "22% Higher Than SAAMI Standards"..... OK, Which standards? Established when? This is an ever changing saga.
According to my old Speer manuals: SAAMI & the industry introduced "+P" ammo ratings as of 1975, .38 Special standard pressure was 18,900 CUP then. +P was 22,400 CUP. As of 1998 it was 17,000 PSI and 20,000 PSI. As of today, (some 19 years later), it is 17,000 PSI & 18,500 PSI. This is ever evolving in a lower direction.
So if you do the math, "+P" for .38 Special was 22,400 in 1975 when SAAMI first introduced the standard. Today "+P" is now 18,500. That is a whopping 3,900 PSI, or over 17% LOWER. Yeah, I get it that CUP doesn't correlate exactly into PSI. But you see where all of this is going. Down... WAY DOWN. I'm betting if you do a similar cross comparison with 9 MM, you'll most likely come up with similar percentages. This isn't unique to just .38 Special. So..... "22% over SAAMI Spec.", today isn't really. Especially if you subtract the 17% they've lowered their "standard". It's to the point that "+P" along with all of this "+P+" is somewhat becoming a joke. These "standards" hardly remain "standard" for very long. And when they change, they go lower... NEVER higher. Last I checked, my guns haven't weakened with age.
The only reason I'm showing the warning label is to point out the numbers on it not the wording
I understand. But another thing you have to remember is over the years SAAMI pressures have been lowered..... A LOT. The "warning" on your box of current production Gold Dots states, they are.... "22% Higher Than SAAMI Standards"..... OK, Which standards? Established when? This is an ever changing saga.
According to my old Speer manuals: SAAMI & the industry introduced "+P" ammo ratings as of 1975, .38 Special standard pressure was 18,900 CUP then. +P was 22,400 CUP. As of 1998 it was 17,000 PSI and 20,000 PSI. As of today, (some 19 years later), it is 17,000 PSI & 18,500 PSI. This is ever evolving in a lower direction.
So if you do the math, "+P" for .38 Special was 22,400 in 1975 when SAAMI first introduced the standard. Today "+P" is now 18,500. That is a whopping 3,900 PSI, or over 17% LOWER. Yeah, I get it that CUP doesn't correlate exactly into PSI. But you see where all of this is going. Down... WAY DOWN. I'm betting if you do a similar cross comparison with 9 MM, you'll most likely come up with similar percentages. This isn't unique to just .38 Special. So..... "22% over SAAMI Spec.", today isn't really. Especially if you subtract the 17% they've lowered their "standard". It's to the point that "+P" along with all of this "+P+" is somewhat becoming a joke. These "standards" hardly remain "standard" for very long. And when they change, they go lower... NEVER higher. Last I checked, my guns haven't weakened with age.
Originally Posted By: billt460
That always made me laugh.... "For Law Enforcement Use Only" As if "law Enforcement" guns were stronger.
Yes, as you point out, this reeks of legal pressure, not chamber pressure.
That always made me laugh.... "For Law Enforcement Use Only" As if "law Enforcement" guns were stronger.
Yes, as you point out, this reeks of legal pressure, not chamber pressure.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: billt460
That always made me laugh.... "For Law Enforcement Use Only" As if "law Enforcement" guns were stronger.
Yes, as you point out, this reeks of legal pressure, not chamber pressure.
It does stink of legal CYA but I think they find that they sell more of them to mall ninjas with the LE ONLY!!!1 warning.
The only manufacturer that I know of that actually makes it hard to get their "LE ONLY!!!1" load is Winchester, with their Ranger T 127gr +P+ 9mm offering. That ammo is such a PITA to get. I'll stick to 9BPLE because it's more available, cheaper and has the stopping power of an SS-18's 20MT reentry vehicle.
Originally Posted By: billt460
That always made me laugh.... "For Law Enforcement Use Only" As if "law Enforcement" guns were stronger.
Yes, as you point out, this reeks of legal pressure, not chamber pressure.
It does stink of legal CYA but I think they find that they sell more of them to mall ninjas with the LE ONLY!!!1 warning.
The only manufacturer that I know of that actually makes it hard to get their "LE ONLY!!!1" load is Winchester, with their Ranger T 127gr +P+ 9mm offering. That ammo is such a PITA to get. I'll stick to 9BPLE because it's more available, cheaper and has the stopping power of an SS-18's 20MT reentry vehicle.
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
I'll stick to 9BPLE because it's more available, cheaper and has the stopping power of an SS-18's 20MT reentry vehicle.
I just purchased a case of the 9BPLE. I got it for $15.19 a box delivered. Not too bad. I like it BECAUSE it fragments so badly. It really leaves a nasty wound channel, and gives over 13" of penetration in the process. The fact it's supposedly "+P+" is meaningless to me. It's simply a good round.
I'll stick to 9BPLE because it's more available, cheaper and has the stopping power of an SS-18's 20MT reentry vehicle.
I just purchased a case of the 9BPLE. I got it for $15.19 a box delivered. Not too bad. I like it BECAUSE it fragments so badly. It really leaves a nasty wound channel, and gives over 13" of penetration in the process. The fact it's supposedly "+P+" is meaningless to me. It's simply a good round.
Good on you, billt460. This is an awesome round and it has a proven track record per Marshall & Sanow. I won't listen to any arguments contrary to this opinion. Sounds like I'm pretty closed minded, and that's correct, I'm a moron. A moron who swears by 9BPLE.
quick edit: A really nice side benefit is the gentle curvature of the round, which helps assure that it won't get hung up on feed ramps that weren't designed with JHPs in mind.
quick edit: A really nice side benefit is the gentle curvature of the round, which helps assure that it won't get hung up on feed ramps that weren't designed with JHPs in mind.
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
...... I'm a moron. A moron who swears by 9BPLE.
You're no moron. Just a guy who knows a good round when he sees it. And doesn't get a boner over every new gimmick round that comes down the pike. I'm the same way. 9BPLE will ruin someone's day today, just as it would back when it was first introduced. Mine is packaged in the plain white box with black lettering. This is the joint I got it from. They shipped it out in less than 24 hours after I placed the order. Hopefully I'll have it by Friday.
https://www.outdoorlimited.com/Federal-9mm-P-F9BPLE-115-gr-JHP-50-per-box-p/f9bple.htm
...... I'm a moron. A moron who swears by 9BPLE.
You're no moron. Just a guy who knows a good round when he sees it. And doesn't get a boner over every new gimmick round that comes down the pike. I'm the same way. 9BPLE will ruin someone's day today, just as it would back when it was first introduced. Mine is packaged in the plain white box with black lettering. This is the joint I got it from. They shipped it out in less than 24 hours after I placed the order. Hopefully I'll have it by Friday.
https://www.outdoorlimited.com/Federal-9mm-P-F9BPLE-115-gr-JHP-50-per-box-p/f9bple.htm
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
It does stink of legal CYA but I think they find that they sell more of them to mall ninjas with the LE ONLY!!!1 warning.
That may be true, but a good disclaimer that also increases sales is a company's dream.
It does stink of legal CYA but I think they find that they sell more of them to mall ninjas with the LE ONLY!!!1 warning.
That may be true, but a good disclaimer that also increases sales is a company's dream.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
It does stink of legal CYA but I think they find that they sell more of them to mall ninjas with the LE ONLY!!!1 warning.
That may be true, but a good disclaimer that also increases sales is a company's dream.
You guys may be right on this. I remember when AR's made during the Clinton AWB fetched a premium because of the, "Military / Government / Law Enforcement Export Only", markings on the side.
http://i.imgur.com/uf8IS9V.jpg?2
Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
It does stink of legal CYA but I think they find that they sell more of them to mall ninjas with the LE ONLY!!!1 warning.
That may be true, but a good disclaimer that also increases sales is a company's dream.
You guys may be right on this. I remember when AR's made during the Clinton AWB fetched a premium because of the, "Military / Government / Law Enforcement Export Only", markings on the side.
http://i.imgur.com/uf8IS9V.jpg?2
Yes, the markings don't really mean a lot if they're not actually somehow enforced, but they can add a little panache to a firearm, and a good disclaimer never hurt anyone.
I do remember many years back, there was a big 9 mm ammo shortage up here, with the U.S. being really concerned about end use for a period, and as I recall, the way things were written, it was a little hard to properly account for an "end user," be it public, law enforcement, or military.
I do remember many years back, there was a big 9 mm ammo shortage up here, with the U.S. being really concerned about end use for a period, and as I recall, the way things were written, it was a little hard to properly account for an "end user," be it public, law enforcement, or military.
The 9 BPLE is a great round and not even overly expensive, which is nice. It is however optimized for duty size weapons as you would expect, velocities drop dramatically in barrels under 4".
The case of Federal BPLE 9 MM arrived yesterday. Beautiful ammo! I think this is about the best self defense 9 MM available. Especially for the price. ($303.00 delivered / $15.15 @ box of 50). I think I'll swing by Harbor Freight this morning, and pick up a couple of new .50 Cal. metal ammo cans for it.
Yeah buddy, great deal! I paid about 18 a box delivered but that was when all calibers were under pressure from the long panic. The ammo really is pretty.
Btw, the images didn't show up right - try the BITOG inline uploader, it works great.
Btw, the images didn't show up right - try the BITOG inline uploader, it works great.
This stuff is fantastic performing ammunition for the price. I just can't see paying a buck a round, or more for self defense 9 MM. When there is this stuff around for less than half of that, and has such a well proven track record.
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