So, does this indicate a move to there being a large portion of the additive package bring POE to accomplish this if the base is still debatable or is the base a final say in NOACK? Just trying to learn, forgive the ignorance.
New Pennzoil ULTRA PDS
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Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Why isn't PU 5W30labeled a 0W30? It looks like it meets the specs? Is it because it would sell less as a 0W30?
According to the API rules, if it meets a 0W-30 it must be labeled as a 0W-30, i.e. the lowest W grade it fully satisfies. With a CCS of 4,000 cP @ -30C it will not likely pass the 0W spec of 6,200 cP at -35C.
Tom NJ
Thanks Tom, in the chart above Mobil 0W30 doesn't even list the CCS. To someone trying to learn, the chart is quite confusing. I think leaving out certain numbers while probably intentional, makes it even more confusing. JMO
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Why isn't PU 5W30labeled a 0W30? It looks like it meets the specs? Is it because it would sell less as a 0W30?
According to the API rules, if it meets a 0W-30 it must be labeled as a 0W-30, i.e. the lowest W grade it fully satisfies. With a CCS of 4,000 cP @ -30C it will not likely pass the 0W spec of 6,200 cP at -35C.
Tom NJ
Thanks Tom, in the chart above Mobil 0W30 doesn't even list the CCS. To someone trying to learn, the chart is quite confusing. I think leaving out certain numbers while probably intentional, makes it even more confusing. JMO
Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
So, does this indicate a move to there being a large portion of the additive package bring POE to accomplish this if the base is still debatable or is the base a final say in NOACK? Just trying to learn, forgive the ignorance.
The percentage of additive carrier relative to the complete motor oil is too low to greatly change the oil's volatility. You can play around with some numbers, assuming two different additive carrier oil volatilities and assuming the complete motor oil's volatility is a weighted average (by volume) of the volatility of the base oils and the additive carrier.
So, does this indicate a move to there being a large portion of the additive package bring POE to accomplish this if the base is still debatable or is the base a final say in NOACK? Just trying to learn, forgive the ignorance.
The percentage of additive carrier relative to the complete motor oil is too low to greatly change the oil's volatility. You can play around with some numbers, assuming two different additive carrier oil volatilities and assuming the complete motor oil's volatility is a weighted average (by volume) of the volatility of the base oils and the additive carrier.
Thanks, JAG.
So, would VIIs be considered additive related or is that more of the blend of different base oils with certain base oils contributing to in that specific area OR is that more of a function of additives(with varying quality) to achieve a certain VI?
Also, are the standard UOAs we see enough to gauge an accurate estimate of the Used Oil's remaining VI; thus shedding 'some' light into the quality of the "Improvers" used? Are there some formulations that have incredible VI without the use of Improvers from the base oil alone like the Sustina/ENEOS lineup, etc?
Thank you.
So, would VIIs be considered additive related or is that more of the blend of different base oils with certain base oils contributing to in that specific area OR is that more of a function of additives(with varying quality) to achieve a certain VI?
Also, are the standard UOAs we see enough to gauge an accurate estimate of the Used Oil's remaining VI; thus shedding 'some' light into the quality of the "Improvers" used? Are there some formulations that have incredible VI without the use of Improvers from the base oil alone like the Sustina/ENEOS lineup, etc?
Thank you.
Itslimjim, anything used to improve VI is by definition a VII, whether it is a polymeric VII or an ester, Group III, PAO, or other fluid sometimes used as a base oil in another oil. An additive by definition is something added to an oil in an minority amount. Not sure that answered the first part of your first question. Finished oil's VI is a function of the interaction between the base oils' VI, any VIIs added, the viscosity itself (since it is relative), and the rest of the additive package. Some fluid additives like alkylated naphthalene and some esters have low VIs so they can lower a finished oil's VI but they may provide benefits that outweigh that negative.
Last two questions...yes and no, respectively. Viscosities at 40C and 100C are all that's needed to get VI. One caveat is with fuel dilution present, it affects the used oil's VI. Gasoline probably changes viscosity much less between those two temps, and if true, would increase the used oil's VI. Question 2: I've never seen a Group 3, 4, or 5 fluid used in motor oils that has a viscosity close enough to be used in major quantities in an oil and that also has a viscosity index over 155. There are PAOs made by XOM that are extremely viscous and have very high VIs. But low percentages have to be used due to their high viscosities and also since VI is relative, it's an apples to oranges comparison to compare it to the VI of an oil with a viscosity of motor oil.
Last two questions...yes and no, respectively. Viscosities at 40C and 100C are all that's needed to get VI. One caveat is with fuel dilution present, it affects the used oil's VI. Gasoline probably changes viscosity much less between those two temps, and if true, would increase the used oil's VI. Question 2: I've never seen a Group 3, 4, or 5 fluid used in motor oils that has a viscosity close enough to be used in major quantities in an oil and that also has a viscosity index over 155. There are PAOs made by XOM that are extremely viscous and have very high VIs. But low percentages have to be used due to their high viscosities and also since VI is relative, it's an apples to oranges comparison to compare it to the VI of an oil with a viscosity of motor oil.
So is this steroided up Pennzoil what you can purchase at walmart? SN/GF-5 etc? Cause its $24 same as PP and I want lol.
Originally Posted By: JAG
Itslimjim, anything used to improve VI is by definition a VII, whether it is a polymeric VII or an ester, Group III, PAO, or other fluid sometimes used as a base oil in another oil. An additive by definition is something added to an oil in an minority amount. Not sure that answered the first part of your first question. Finished oil's VI is a function of the interaction between the base oils' VI, any VIIs added, the viscosity itself (since it is relative), and the rest of the additive package. Some fluid additives like alkylated naphthalene and some esters have low VIs so they can lower a finished oil's VI but they may provide benefits that outweigh that negative.
Last two questions...yes and no, respectively. Viscosities at 40C and 100C are all that's needed to get VI. One caveat is with fuel dilution present, it affects the used oil's VI. Gasoline probably changes viscosity much less between those two temps, and if true, would increase the used oil's VI. Question 2: I've never seen a Group 3, 4, or 5 fluid used in motor oils that has a viscosity close enough to be used in major quantities in an oil and that also has a viscosity index over 155. There are PAOs made by XOM that are extremely viscous and have very high VIs. But low percentages have to be used due to their high viscosities and also since VI is relative, it's an apples to oranges comparison to compare it to the VI of an oil with a viscosity of motor oil.
I knew it was something relative to this, but I've never been able to fully wrap my mind around it enough to put it in words the way that makes it all relative, I gotta stop reading at such a late hour, too.
/mindblown.
Thanks.
Itslimjim, anything used to improve VI is by definition a VII, whether it is a polymeric VII or an ester, Group III, PAO, or other fluid sometimes used as a base oil in another oil. An additive by definition is something added to an oil in an minority amount. Not sure that answered the first part of your first question. Finished oil's VI is a function of the interaction between the base oils' VI, any VIIs added, the viscosity itself (since it is relative), and the rest of the additive package. Some fluid additives like alkylated naphthalene and some esters have low VIs so they can lower a finished oil's VI but they may provide benefits that outweigh that negative.
Last two questions...yes and no, respectively. Viscosities at 40C and 100C are all that's needed to get VI. One caveat is with fuel dilution present, it affects the used oil's VI. Gasoline probably changes viscosity much less between those two temps, and if true, would increase the used oil's VI. Question 2: I've never seen a Group 3, 4, or 5 fluid used in motor oils that has a viscosity close enough to be used in major quantities in an oil and that also has a viscosity index over 155. There are PAOs made by XOM that are extremely viscous and have very high VIs. But low percentages have to be used due to their high viscosities and also since VI is relative, it's an apples to oranges comparison to compare it to the VI of an oil with a viscosity of motor oil.
I knew it was something relative to this, but I've never been able to fully wrap my mind around it enough to put it in words the way that makes it all relative, I gotta stop reading at such a late hour, too.
/mindblown.
Thanks for that awesome laymen's explanation JAG!
Originally Posted By: buster
If you click on the PDS from the Ultra page it now takes you to the GF-4/SM version. lol
Maybe this is will be rectified? The last two nights Shell and Pennzoil's lube match website is undergoing "routine maintenance".
If you click on the PDS from the Ultra page it now takes you to the GF-4/SM version. lol
Maybe this is will be rectified? The last two nights Shell and Pennzoil's lube match website is undergoing "routine maintenance".
Originally Posted By: buster
http://www.epc.shell.com/documentRetrieve.asp?documentId=66505725
Impressive numbers for us freaks. Volatility is the lowest. Lower than Amsoil and the MRV numbers are really good.
Using the graph below to interpolate from the CCS and NOACK nos, Pennzoil Ultra seems to be about 60% PAO. This is more PAO than probably almost any other oil, including Mobil 1 and Amsoil, which both seem to have become mostly Group III lately according to their NOACK nos.
Note that this estimate neglects any Group V in the oil. It still gives a good idea on the PAO content though.
http://www.epc.shell.com/documentRetrieve.asp?documentId=66505725
Impressive numbers for us freaks. Volatility is the lowest. Lower than Amsoil and the MRV numbers are really good.
Using the graph below to interpolate from the CCS and NOACK nos, Pennzoil Ultra seems to be about 60% PAO. This is more PAO than probably almost any other oil, including Mobil 1 and Amsoil, which both seem to have become mostly Group III lately according to their NOACK nos.
Note that this estimate neglects any Group V in the oil. It still gives a good idea on the PAO content though.
I doubt that PU contains that much PAO. Even Pennzoil stated it is primary group III base. Shell has some of the highest quality base stocks especially the group III variety often referred to "super group III"
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Originally Posted By: dave1251
I doubt that PU contains that much PAO. Even Pennzoil stated it is primary group III base. Shell has some of the highest quality base stocks especially the group III variety often referred to "super group III"
Exactly. I fail to see why SOPUS would buy PAO from ExxonMobil (and others) when they could just (and likely do) just use their own GIII+, which is known to be excellent.
I doubt that PU contains that much PAO. Even Pennzoil stated it is primary group III base. Shell has some of the highest quality base stocks especially the group III variety often referred to "super group III"
Exactly. I fail to see why SOPUS would buy PAO from ExxonMobil (and others) when they could just (and likely do) just use their own GIII+, which is known to be excellent.
Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
Known from the non existant PU website info ? Sounds like more opinion than fact !
I got the NOACK and CCS nos for the new SN formulation of Pennzoil Ultra from the datasheet buster linked.
Known from the non existant PU website info ? Sounds like more opinion than fact !
I got the NOACK and CCS nos for the new SN formulation of Pennzoil Ultra from the datasheet buster linked.
Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
Which has NEVER been verified or factually substantiated. Most especially by Pennzoil.
Well, if you don't trust the datasheet, write to Shell and complain. It's from their official PDS/MSDS site.
Which has NEVER been verified or factually substantiated. Most especially by Pennzoil.
Well, if you don't trust the datasheet, write to Shell and complain. It's from their official PDS/MSDS site.
Originally Posted By: dave1251
I doubt that PU contains that much PAO. Even Pennzoil stated it is primary group III base. Shell has some of the highest quality base stocks especially the group III variety often referred to "super group III"
That statement was for the SM formulation. Even Group III+ can't have NOACK that low. Typical Group III+ NOACK is between 11 - 13%.
I doubt that PU contains that much PAO. Even Pennzoil stated it is primary group III base. Shell has some of the highest quality base stocks especially the group III variety often referred to "super group III"
That statement was for the SM formulation. Even Group III+ can't have NOACK that low. Typical Group III+ NOACK is between 11 - 13%.
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