New Pennzoil Platinum 0w20 SN PDS -2012

[Blue_Goose]

I'm not even gonna pretend to understand what these last 4 pages have said...lol

As a simple question, how does this PP 0W20 stack up against M1 0W20 AFE? I'm only asking as this is what I just put in my Accord (M1)



Goose

 

[Obos]

They are all 20 weight oils which means they have to have a minimum HTHSv of 2.6.

Any differences in HTHSv will be very small. Mobil 1 has a HTHSv of 2.7

So it may have a slight advantage there if the oil temp ever gets pushed really high (which most people say is highly unlikely). Your commuting scenario would not seem to push the oil as hard as CATERHAMs track racing would.

The higher VI oils have an advantage until operating temp is reached.

So on balance, for the scenario mentioned, the difference in protection is negligible, perhaps an advantage to the higher VI oils since it takes 30 minutes for an engine to warm up (your commute time).

 

[buster]

True, but you're ignoring so many other things that going into an oil - base oil quality, detergents, additives, extreme hot/cold performance etc. Focusing JUST on VI is naive. I understand the interest and praise of TGMO, but there are other desirable qualities to look for in oil. And I DO like TGMO. I think it's a great oil.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Obos
They are all 20 weight oils which means they have to have a minimum HTHSv of 2.6.

Any differences in HTHSv will be very small. Mobil 1 has a HTHSv of 2.7

So it may have a slight advantage there if the oil temp ever gets pushed really high (which most people say is highly unlikely). Your commuting scenario would not seem to push the oil as hard as CATERHAMs track racing would.

The higher VI oils have an advantage until operating temp is reached.

So on balance, for the scenario mentioned, the difference in protection is negligible, perhaps an advantage to the higher VI oils since it takes 30 minutes for an engine to warm up (your commute time).



Thanks for your opinion, I was hoping for factual data. 60% of wear occurs after start up, a modern engine warms up in less than 30 minutes unless its very cold. I also said 30 miles, in heavy traffic that can take an hour or better. Just to clear things up.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Blue_Goose
I'm not even gonna pretend to understand what these last 4 pages have said...lol

As a simple question, how does this PP 0W20 stack up against M1 0W20 AFE? I'm only asking as this is what I just put in my Accord (M1)Goose

Since your Accord is back spec'd for a 0W-20, I would say both are heavier than necessary, I go with at OEM 0W-20 such as TGMO.

But if I had to choose between just these two oils I'd stick with M1 AFE for it's higher 173 VI.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Blue_Goose
As a simple question, how does this PP 0W20 stack up against M1 0W20 AFE? I'm only asking as this is what I just put in my Accord (M1)


Since any of these oils will be just fine in a low-rpm Honda K24 like what you and I have, I judge an oil mostly by how the engine feels/sounds on it. In my experience, PP 0W-20 is quite loud in the K24, and M1 0W-20 has been the quietest oil I've used in it. So M1 0W-20 is what's going in in another 1,000 miles when it's time for my next oil change.

 

[Obos]

Originally Posted By: buster
True, but you're ignoring so many other things that going into an oil - base oil quality, detergents, additives, extreme hot/cold performance etc. Focusing JUST on VI is naive. I understand the interest and praise of TGMO, but there are other desirable qualities to look for in oil. And I DO like TGMO. I think it's a great oil.


Totally agreed. And as you know, those other factors are of course part of the spec that the manufacturer considers and requires an oil to meet. And there are tests for each of them that oil manufacturers must meet.

So the only reason to focus on VI is that if everything else meets spec and is tested to meet spec (resistance to shear perhaps being the most important), then a higher VI is desirable.

If that higher VI has come from shear resistant VIIs then great.

If that higher VI has come from base oils that themselves have a higher VI then that's great too.

And the above is how it has happened. The oil as a whole has not been compromised. It's not something from the 50's with super doses of VIIs

 

[Trav]

Quote:
No oil company was implicated in the Toyota, VW, Saab, Chrysler sludged engines from 1996-2004. All those manufacturers except Chrysler ended up giving extended warranties

Thats right thanks for making my point! No oil company was involved, it was the manufactures engineers that dropped the ball.
Ok Mark, Mori, Obos or whatever your handle is this week time to stop playing games, your too transparent.

 

[Hounds]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
. . . If the engine is spec'd for a light high VI oil then there is no issue, the viscosity demands are being met plus a large safety margin. If thinking of running a light high VI oil in another application it's always prudent to have an oil pressure gauge just to make sure that you're always maintaining a certain known safe minimum operational viscosity when the oil gets fully hot.

Driving hard doesn't mean in any way that you need to run a heavier (higher HTHSV) oil. If you can maintain your minimum desired operational viscosity which oil pressure is proxy for, then you can certainly run a light 2.6cP oil.
The following is a UOA of the Idemitsu (Honda) (199 VI, HTHSV 2.6cP) I ran a while back in my track car:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2829459&page=1

The engine is actually spec'd for a heavier oil but since my maximum oil temp's are so well contained (that is the key) I've found it to be preferable to run a lighter oil and enjoy the benefits of improved driveabilty, engine responsiveness and increased power.


Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
. . . The engine has a hard life including track days and fast road work. The engine is started infrequently, months can go by in the winter without the car being started or driven. When it is started the car is always driven enough to bring oil temp's up to at least 75C usually 80C before shutting it down. Maximum street oil temp's are 85C and normal maximum oil temp's on the track is 95C with one session of hitting 105C when the oil was fresh (no time to remove the sump shroud at a track event). I usually wait until the oil temp's have reached 70C before using max' rev's but not always since it can take 25 minutes to do so.

jfi: 70C=158F; 75C=167F; 80C=176F; 95C=203F; and 105C=221 -- oil temps that (save 221F) are quite low and thus easily within the operational viscosity of any 0W-20 weight oil.

However, I take it that the jest of this thread is that the majors, now including the heretofore sainted RDS, have sold their souls to the devil, and they are more than eager to distribute marginal products to an unsuspecting public to make a buck. Got it.

 

[Obos]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Obos
They are all 20 weight oils which means they have to have a minimum HTHSv of 2.6.

Any differences in HTHSv will be very small. Mobil 1 has a HTHSv of 2.7

So it may have a slight advantage there if the oil temp ever gets pushed really high (which most people say is highly unlikely). Your commuting scenario would not seem to push the oil as hard as CATERHAMs track racing would.

The higher VI oils have an advantage until operating temp is reached.

So on balance, for the scenario mentioned, the difference in protection is negligible, perhaps an advantage to the higher VI oils since it takes 30 minutes for an engine to warm up (your commute time).



Thanks for your opinion, I was hoping for factual data. 60% of wear occurs after start up, a modern engine warms up in less than 30 minutes unless its very cold. I also said 30 miles, in heavy traffic that can take an hour or better. Just to clear things up.


I thought I had provided quite a few facts. Remember we also have the extensive work of Toyota, Mazda, Honda engineers as well as their partners from Mobil, Sustina, Idemitsu as our starting point, so there is more an onus on the doubters to provide facts.

The fact is that there is negligible difference between the HTHSv of one of the oils you held up (Mobil 0w20) at 2.7 and the minimum HTHSv that the high VI oils could have (2.6)

The fact is that plenty of vehicles have used conventional oil with that HTHSv in conditions more severe than your commuting example.

These high VI oils have superior base stock than those conventional oils.

The fact is that the vehicle and lab testing of these higher VI oils is more severe than the commuting example.

The fact is you may be better off arguing 30 vs 20 than this one. JMO

 

[Trav]

Quote:
Since your Accord is back spec'd for a 0W-20, I would say both are heavier than necessary

Well you would but that doesn't make it right.
This engine was back spec'd but you don't know why and neither do i, the closer to keeping to the original spec the better and safer IMO.

Take Ford back specing the 5.4 Modular it had a weight proviso meaning even though the back spec'd it it wasn't optimal.
I cant/don't believe there is a 0w20 sold in NA that is to heavy for use in CONUS.
If you believe there is then take it up with the oil companies.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
No oil company was implicated in the Toyota, VW, Saab, Chrysler sludged engines from 1996-2004. All those manufacturers except Chrysler ended up giving extended warranties

Thats right thanks for making my point! No oil company was involved, it was the manufactures engineers that dropped the ball.
Ok Mark, Mori, Obos or whatever your handle is this week time to stop playing games, your too transparent.



I think you're onto something Trav. Welcome back Mark.

Anon proxy anyone?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: buster
True, but you're ignoring so many other things that going into an oil - base oil quality, detergents, additives, extreme hot/cold performance etc. Focusing JUST on VI is naive. I understand the interest and praise of TGMO, but there are other desirable qualities to look for in oil. And I DO like TGMO. I think it's a great oil.

I wouldn't say focusing on VI is naive; it is a very important aspect of an oil's viscosity and viscosity is the single most important difference between motor oils. But I would say fully understanding what a high VI means, and most don't, and how it will apply to one's particular application, will help make a more informed oil choice.

As I've mentioned, if you really want to get precise in your oil choice, install an OP and even a OT gauge. Since most aren't inclined to to this or know someone with the same make and model of car who already has, simply run the lightest oil recommended by the manufacturer including being up-to-date on any grade back spec'ing.
If your car is just spec'd for a 5W-20, and your still within warranty and you really want to use a 0W-20 go with M1 0W-20, they're on record claiming their oil will not void any warranty where a 5W-20 is specified.
Outside of warranty, if you want to try a high VI 0W-20 like TGMO or Mazda USA 0W-20, that's fine, just be aware that it may be somewhat lighter at hot operating temp's. If you're going to do something extreme like trailer towing and you want to play it super conservative add a pint or even a quart of M1 0W-40. That will bump your HTHSV to 2.7-2.8cP while still retaining your 200+ VI, so the effect on cold starting will not be affected much.

 

[Obos]

Great, balanced advice

 

[bluesubie]

If I had one of the new oil guzzling Subaru's that spec 0W-20 (Forester, BRZ, Impreza, or Outback), the first thing that I would look for is an oil with a low NOACK.

Consumer Reports even mentioned oil consumption in the Impreza and it's not even a performance car. Wonder if their dealer used the Subaru/Idemitsu oil?

-Dennis

 

[asharris7]

What are the parameters for HTHSV in a ow-20 oil? I know the Amsoil ASM is at 2.8, AFE is 2.7 and a lot of others are 2.6 (PP, OEM's etc)

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: bluesubie
If I had one of the new oil guzzling Subaru's that spec 0W-20 (Forester, BRZ, Impreza, or Outback), the first thing that I would look for is an oil with a low NOACK.

Consumer Reports even mentioned oil consumption in the Impreza and it's not even a performance car. Wonder if their dealer used the Subaru/Idemitsu oil?
-Dennis

I don't think NOACK has much to do with it in a 20wt application.
What is the oil consumption rate?

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Red Line certainly is with their 0W-30 (183 VI) and 0W-40 (197 VI) both of which have proved to be shear stable.


Since we are certain that Rl is NOT using the new super-duper Asteric-type VIIs, is it reasonable to take for granted that they are adding A LOT of the older style PMA VIIs to their 0W-40 in order to get that high VI number, regardless of just how GREAT the base stock blend may be??

Also, is there a BIG range of quality within those older, less ideal, more shear-prone PMA VIIs (so I can at least hope that RL uses the BEST of them

)?

 

[Trav]

Quote:
simply run the lightest oil recommended by the manufacturer including being up-to-date on any grade back spec'ing.

This is bad advise on the back specing IMHO! You are not taking mileage or engine wear into account.
The last thing an engine with a good amount of miles and wear on the bearings, oil pump, bores, etc is an even thinner oil.

Now if you said install an OP gauge before doing this i wouldn't have a problem but you said..
Quote:
Since most aren't inclined to to this or know someone with the same make and model of car who already has, simply run the lightest oil recommended by the manufacturer including being up-to-date on any grade back spec'ing.

 

[fdcg27]

The new Subie engines drink oil?
I know I'd love pouring an expensive 0W-20 in an engine that loved to consume it.
I guess I needn't be jealous of those who have Foresters with the newer engine.