Natural Oil is just as good as Synthetic Oil (comments please).

BOBISTHEOILGUY · Jun 4, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. T:
I like to make the Synthetic VS. Conventional oil anecdotal to using cheaper gas vs. premium.

Yes, both will work. Synthetic oils run cooler, cleaner, longer. The have better lubricating properties during all times, especially in hot and cold. This translates into longer lasting and cleaner running engines...translating into better fuel economy.

if you wish to keep a car newer longer...synthetics are superior in accomplishing this.

Greaser, those links provided no information to support Dr T.s comments/claims as stated above. Lets get some evidence that what he say's is true.

How does the synth oil run "cooler" than the mineral oil. Let's consider using both mineral and synth oil from the same company for comparisons. Do you really think it the synth oil(base stock) or the blend of additives that provided those differences of a synth oil running cooler?

[ June 04, 2003, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

BOBISTHEOILGUY · Jun 4, 2003

bcrawford is that penz synth or mineral you talking about

Russel, I agree with you that in that type of situation a synth would provide you that little extra as that is EXTREME heat where synths' are designed to take that.

bcrawford · Jun 4, 2003

Bob, I use the Dino Pennzoil 10w30 w/SL rating, do you think my plan might be worth trying with all the highway miles that I run. I need to correct my other post my mileage is 95 to 98% Interstate driving @ 75mph, approx. 100 miles per day.

Bruce

Schmoe · Jun 4, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by RussellA:

Last year I discovered my 99 Avalon has a sludging problem/tendency. It appears to be fine and very clean. I feel had I changed dino at the recommended 7.5k or even severe service 5k, my engine would have sludge right now. In short it gives me piece of mind if something goes wrong in the engine.

Whoa Nelly!!!! That is not the oils fault. That has been a Toyota design problem for some time now. In fact, Toyota just recently fessed up on this issue. If you live or drive anywhere around Atlanta, then you should have been on the severe schedule. I can respect the piece of mind feeling.

BOBISTHEOILGUY · Jun 4, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by bcrawford:
Bob, I use the Dino Pennzoil 10w30 w/SL rating, do you think my plan might be worth trying with all the highway miles that I run. I need to correct my other post my mileage is 95 to 98% Interstate driving @ 75mph, approx. 100 miles per day.

Bruce

With using analysis,you can extend as far as it will take you. Extending drain intervals should always be monitored by analysis and this can and will dictate as to what you are doing with what oil and filter is working for your situation or not. That is what you're looking for more than anything. My extended drains vary from one time to another based on my driving during that oil drain. Many times, I've got hwy miles other shorter drains, I have intown and high heat summer temps so keep all the variables in mind while doing this.

RCmodeler · Jun 4, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Schmoe:
I would think that all the manufacturers would then be specifically telling you to put synthetics in the engine because of what you said. If it were all 100% true, then all the manufacturers could brag about how good their engines are and dino would be extinct.

No. Manufacturers want your engine to last 100,000 miles, and that's it. Just long enough so that they don't have to repair your car under warranty, and that's it.

There are a few more reputable manufacturers recommending synthetics:
> Mercedes Benz
> Porsche
> Toyota (for their Siennas)
> Chevy Corvette
> Ford Mustang
> Aston Martin

rpn453 · Jun 4, 2003

quote:

Topic: Natural Oil is just as good as Synthetic Oil

Not when it's -40 outside!

MolaKule · Jun 4, 2003

I think synthetics excell in high temp situations and low temp lubrication.

But a study in May 1993 by K.L Johnson at NASA Lewis Research Center, and written up in Lubrication Engineering of May 1993, showed that synthetic fluids had a lower coefficient of friction for high sliding velocities as compared to petroleum oils.

quote:

Summary of Results:

Studies were made of the lubricating effectiveness of various classes of unihibited fluids in boundary lubrication of steel surfaces at high sliding velocities...
1. Sliding friction data and surface-failure data properties show that a number of synthetics, including diesters, polyethers, a silicate ester, and phosphonate esters are more effective boundary lubricants at high sliding velocities than petroleum oils of comparable viscosity at 100 F....

[ June 04, 2003, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

RussellA · Jun 4, 2003

quote:

Whoa Nelly!!!! That is not the oils fault. That has been a Toyota design problem for some time now. In fact, Toyota just recently fessed up on this issue. If you live or drive anywhere around Atlanta, then you should have been on the severe schedule.

Let me clarify, my particular car did not have the problem, just this model. I got the "letter" from Toyota. My point is I feel Mobil 1 save my car from being effected by the design flaw. Sounds like more and more engines are being tougher on oil in similar ways. FYI, I'm now on Amsoil 0w-30 every 5K.

I agree Atlanta is a severe service city, my thought has always been synth on severe service lasts as long as dino on normal service and keeps you from officially doing extended drains for warranty purposes, thus the 7.5k changes with M1 , up until I got "the letter".

pedaltothemetal · Jun 4, 2003

For me a picture was worth a thousand words. Even all these posting here I thought it was a waste of money if you didn't do extended drains. Well until I tried synthetics in my engine. Right out of my driveway, I felt the difference. Smoother running, more pickup. All I can say is sythetics feels way better than dino for my engine. Will it for yours? If you don't try it you will never know!

Leo

Pablo · Jun 4, 2003

Dino oil won't last 10,000 miles in my turbo. Synthetic oil will. Period.

BOBISTHEOILGUY · Jun 4, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by pedaltothemetal:
For me a picture was worth a thousand words. Even all these posting here I thought it was a waste of money if you didn't do extended drains. Well until I tried synthetics in my engine. Right out of my driveway, I felt the difference. Smoother running, more pickup. All I can say is sythetics feels way better than dino for my engine. Will it for yours? If you don't try it you will never know!

Leo

I guess you're missing the point here... WAS it the SYNTH OIL or the DIFFERENT ADDITIVE PACKAGE from the DINO oil you changed from that MADE THE DIFFERENCE.

Mola, I would agree to a point but in a car / truck engine, the oil will not make the engine run cooler as the engine is designed with thermastates to regulate the engine temp therefore, both dino and synth will not change the engine temp. This is based on the fact that if the dino and synth oil are both infact of the same basic Cst visocsity. Also you might note, go through our VOA's and notice that Synth oils have as high or even higher amounts of FM's/ antiwear additives compared to basic dino counter parts. IF Synth Base oils themselves provide the barrier additive reduction as they claim, then 1-why the extra higher levels of additives for this and 2- why then does this barrier protection not show up on a timken? My point, I again do not agree with the better barrier protection provided with the synth base stock itself. It does not prove out in UOA nor on timken tests.

[ June 04, 2003, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

BOBISTHEOILGUY · Jun 4, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Pablo:
Dino oil won't last 10,000 miles in my turbo. Synthetic oil will. Period.

That's what synth base stock is about. Period.

Base Stock will not break down as easily in high temp situations. Also flows better in lower temps.

pedaltothemetal · Jun 4, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY:

I guess you're missing the point here... WAS it the SYNTH OIL or the DIFFERENT ADDITIVE PACKAGE from the DINO oil you changed from that MADE THE DIFFERENCE.

It was the synthetic oil with their proprietary additive package that made the difference. I have seen dyno tests. Synthetics show much more gain in hp than dino. Synthetics compared to each other, don't show as much gain. This gain is what I felt going from dino to synthetics.

Leo

joee12 · Jun 4, 2003

Rcmodeler, again I will ask you what forum this came from. What replies did he get? -Joe

MolaKule · Jun 4, 2003

Please note correction. This paper came out in 1953 and was reprinted in 1993. So this is NOT new data.

quote:

I think synthetics excell in high temp situations and low temp lubrication.

But a study in 1953 by K.L Johnson at NASA Lewis Research Center, and written up in Lubrication Engineering of May 1993, showed that synthetic fluids had a lower coefficient of friction for high sliding velocities as compared to petroleum oils.

quote:

Summary of Results:

Studies were made of the lubricating effectiveness of various classes of unihibited fluids in boundary lubrication of steel surfaces at high sliding velocities...
1. Sliding friction data and surface-failure data properties show that a number of synthetics, including diesters, polyethers, a silicate ester, and phosphonate esters are more effective boundary lubricants at high sliding velocities than petroleum oils of comparable viscosity at 100 F....

Bob,

I am not referring to average temps controlled by a thermostat. I am am referring to temperature spikes and temperature lows when the cooling system is either not functioning or is not sensitive or large enough to handle temp spikes when in WOT acceleration, etc, or when having to start from a cold start and needing acceleration.

There two boundary lubrication regimes: a.) Friction Modification lubrication, b.) Anti-Wear(AW)/EP lubrication.

All oils have to have AW additives, whether dino or synthetic. Full Synthetic oils with high ester contents have natural friction modification and higher film strengths.

I will try and do a search on previous threads and comments from past discussion where this was explained.

[ June 04, 2003, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

ALS · Jun 4, 2003

Patman what are you talking about?

"Yes but in most cases those cars were gently driven, or at least they were older style V8 engines which were more durable. It is my belief that if you run a turbocharged or supercharged engine, or if you drive very hard all the time, then you will not get long engine life out of using a $1 off the shelf dino oil, no matter how often you change it."

I have a Volvo 1987 B230FT 4 cylinder Turbo that just passed 282,300 miles. 3000 mile oil changes and have used nothing but dino oil and oem filters since new.
I retrofitted the Turbo system with a SAAB APC boost controller at 125,000 miles. It is set at 14.5 PSI and I use it daily. Had I known about Auto-RX 100,000 miles ago my original Turbo would not had seized at 247,000 miles.

Pablo · Jun 4, 2003

Can I have some fun with this one?

quote:

"Had I known about Auto-RX 100,000 miles ago my original Turbo would not had seized at 247,000 miles"

You were using dino oil and see what happened?

And my Volvo turbo now at 238K miles is doing fine with synthetic oil.....well OK I did buy the car at 150K and it needed a new turbo...in fact it's third turbo - stupid PO used nothing but dino Castrol 20W-50 and killed two turbos...88K miles later the engine is still being cleaned with synthetic oil - finally I gave into the dark side and bought some Auto-Rx. Second treatment soon!

The point is here: yes you can use a well formulated dino oil in a normally aspirated car and be fine...but push the limits - heat, cold, forced aspiration, etc....well you pay the piper.

[ June 04, 2003, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]

buster · Jun 4, 2003

quote:

but push the limits - heat, cold, forced aspiration, etc....well you pay the piper.

I agree. Engine cleanliness, low temp performance and wear are other reasons IMO. It goes beyond just extended drains IMO.

pedaltothemetal · Jun 4, 2003

Dino oil cooks at lower heat than synthetics.
Put a drop of each on tin foil and put a lighter under each drop. The dino will start smoking a lot sooner than the synthetic will.
BTW please don't inhale!

Leo

Natural Oil is just as good as Synthetic Oil (comments please).

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