Natural Oil is just as good as Synthetic Oil (comments please).

[RCmodeler]

I recently had this conversation on another forum. Do you guys think MJ_Alexander's comments have merit?

quote:

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ME:
> Conventional/natural oils come with contaminants even when
> brand-new: waxes. These waxes thicken inside the engine to
> become sludge. Synthetic oils do not have these waxes.
>
> Conventional oils are also overloaded with Viscosity Index Modifiers
> that (a) burn-off/sludge in your engine and/or (b) interfere with
> lubrication. Synthetics have no or virtually no VIMs.
>
> So you see there is a difference in quality between
> conventional/natural and synthetic.

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quote:

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MJ_ALEXANDER:
The wax issue in conventional/natural oil is a myth.

Synthetic oils need other additives, such as rust inhibitors to prevent rusting inside the engine. Something which conventional oil does naturally.

There may be such differences, but are they worth the added expense? Personally I doubt it, unless you subject your car to very extreme conditions. Such as racing, driving in the desert, driving in the arctic, towing heavy loads, etc.

All the 'tests' I've read about only use the synthetic in the extended testing and conventional as the standard interval. Have you seen a test where they ran both under the same tests and conditions? (The NY cab test didn't run conventional oil past the 3k, only the synthetic)

I would be glad to change my thoughts about synthetic if I could be shown actual proof of its value to me.

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[ June 03, 2003, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: RCmodeler ]

 

[Schmoe]

Depends on who you talk to. I think this BB is divided 50/50 on the syn/non syn issue. Do a search and look at comments by Bror Jace. He really seems to know what he's talking about and backs up his mouth. If you change your oil, like most of us on here, every 3 to 4K, a good dino oil will do you well for years to come. If you feel like going for extended drain intervals, then it gets hairy, really up to your own conclusions but synthetics would be the way to go. I'm talking 9 to 10K miles, not 3 to 4K. We have our reasons. My reasons for the 3 to 4K is that I'm too cheap to pay the higher costs for synthetics, I'm just not throughly convinced that a motor oil can take the constant temperature swings and shearing to go for extended drains, and I like changing the oil period. It gets me under my vehicles so I can see what else is going on with them. You know, "One with the vehicle" kind of thing......


and

 

[CJH]

The Mobil 1 web site says something to the effect: If you don't take a lot of short trips and change your oil on time, you really are not going to benefit from Mobil 1.

The benefits come from extended drains and short trip driving, etc.

It would be interesting to try a test similar to the LS1 synthetic oil test using conventional oil. I am betting it wouldn't perform anywhere near as well. They are up to 10,000 miles. I don't think any dino oil would hold up that long.

 

[RCmodeler]

Post-Script:

MJ_Alexander also claimed 7500 miles on conventional/natural oil is safe. I disagreed.

 

[ALS]

Well I have over 282K on my 4 cylinder turbo. All oil changes were done at 3000 miles with Dino oil.
I asked the dealer last year if it would be ok to switch to synthetic. Answer was don't waste your money. You change your oil on a regular basis and the benefits of synthetic wouldn't be worth it in your case. The dealer has cases of synthetic stacked up in the parts department so they are always willing to sell it. My Volvo dealer feels that dino is fine who those that change their oil at regular 3K to 5K intervals.

 

[Schmoe]

Amen to that. Maybe we can start settling some of the difference that some of us have had. We just all agree that a good dino will do you well if changed religously every 3 to 4K, and save the rest for the extended drain discussion.

 

[G-MAN]

The issue boils down to drain intervals, pure and simple. If you use a good quality conventional oil, and don't push it too far, you'll get good service. The same is true for a syn. If you don't push it too far, you'll get good service. The difference between conventional and syn is what constitutes "too far."

Under absolutely ideal conditions (nothing but highway miles with the engine always reaching operating temp), a good conventional oil should be able to go 6000-7000 miles. Under more typical driving conditions, 4000-5000 miles would be the limit. And under awful conditions (short trips, cold temps, engine never getting to operating temp), 3000 miles would be the max.

For synthetics and ideal conditions the drain interval should be 15,000-18,000 miles; for typical conditions, 10,000-12,000 miles; for awful conditions, 5,000-7,000 miles.

[ June 03, 2003, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: G-Man II ]

 

[RCmodeler]

You guys are skirting around the answer I really wanted. Are these statements:

quote:

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MJ_ALEXANDER:
The wax issue in conventional/natural oil is a myth.

Synthetic oils need other additives, such as rust inhibitors to prevent rusting inside the engine. Something which conventional oil does naturally.

---

Accurate?

 

[Ken2]

Part accurate.

Conventional oils do contain a very small amount of wax, but they have pour-point lowering additives in them and the only concern is at very low temperatures. Sludge is not a wax-related concern. Lubrizol sez, "To provide low pour points, the refiner removes wax constituents, which solidify at relatively high temperatures, in a process known as dewaxing. Complete dewaxing would reduce the yield of lube oil to an uneconomical level. Therefore, the dewaxing process is supplemented by using additives that lower the pour point of the oil."

All oils contain corrosion inhibiting additives.
http://www.lubrizol.com/LubeTheory/prop.htm

All oils are the combination of a base oil plus a package of additives.

The choice between synthetic oil and top quality conventional oil is not that cut & dried. Synthetic oil's main benefits are in very cold conditions and to allow for extended drain intervals. Syn has other benefits, and they're a topic for long, long discussions. Of course, all these benefits cost, and that's part of the discussion.


Ken

[ June 03, 2003, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Ken2 ]

 

[Quick_lude]

Personally for my climate and driving habits I would never use dino oil. I don't think regular oil can protect my engine as well as synthetics during lapping days at the track where it's always revving at 6000-7500 rpm. Regular oil might be fine for "everyday" commute cars if changed at 3K miles religiously.. but more demanding applications require superior lubricant properties that dino juice can't deliver yet imo.

 

[JohnBrowning]

I ask the other guy to show you the research on rust inhibation. I am sure that plain oil with no additives is not going to protect very well. It does not matter what the source of the base stock all of them need additives to make them functional in modern engines. The reason conventional oils have less additives is based on use and durability. The conventional oil is not intended for extended drain and the manufacture knows that it will not survive an extended drain. It does not make sense to put expensive additives in an oil that is not going to be in the engine long enough to take advantage of. The customer is also not willing to pay $3 a quarts for a well formulated extended drain conventional oil like Schaffer's. I mean who wants to spend $4-$7 dollars a quart for synthetic or $3 a quart for premium conventional oil when they can buy Walmart SuperTech oil $0.84 a quart???????

 

[Big Red]

ALS
I also only use dino oil. Presently, I am using Castrol GTX but I may switch over to Chevron Supreme during my next oil change, after reading the positive remarks about Chevron.I was courious, what brand of dino oil and filter are you using?
Thanks

 

[Al]

I think on many other boards-the whole issue devolves into a confrontational issue. Folks who use dino oil feel they need to tell the world how smart (and correct) they are by saving big bucks bu using dino oil. The synthetic folks want to make sure they are also smart by paying lots more in exchange for a superior product and long drain intervals. They need to flant their extravagant choice

Each product, I think has its place. I use syn bc I like the long drain intervals and I feel under even bad conditions the syn oil will protect my vehicle better. I am a fanatic with auto reliability and feel its a small price to pay.

On a practical level using dino oil makes lots of sense and I would be hard pressed to argue against its use, especially in light of the higher quality of the SL designation.

Ken2 makes some good points.

 

[unDummy]

Vegetable oil is better than both

Renewablelube soy base and AMG2000 vegetable blend are the future! muahahahahaha

 

[Matt89]

"The wheels on the bus go round and round..."

I just did some calculations, and over a 150K period, Mobil1 changed every 7500 miles will cost me about 280 bucks more overall than changing Pennzoil at 5000 miles.

May be overkill/placebo but it seems worth it since that's only 1% of what I'm paying for the vehicle, and less than 5 months worth of auto insurance. Heck, it's less than the "destination fee" they hit me with! But it's not really about money. I have a bizarre mental disease that requires me to have the best motor oil I can find (at Walmart at least

) That way I can stop thinking about varnish and all that other crap in my engine, even though when I'm thinking lucidly I know it's not there...

I tried hard to convince myself to go back to conventional oil, but couldn't sleep at night - damm this board!

 

[ALS]

Big Red, I use Pennzoil 10W30 and a Volvo OEM filter made by Mann.

 

[Big Red]

ALS
Sounds like a good choice.
Thanks

 

[joee12]

Welcome to the forum RCmodeler. What forum was this off of, it looks familiar? -Joe

 

[Greaser]

quote:

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Originally posted by Matt89:
"The wheels on the bus go round and round..."

I just did some calculations, and over a 150K period, Mobil1 changed every 7500 miles will cost me about 280 bucks more overall than changing Pennzoil at 5000 miles.

May be overkill/placebo but it seems worth it since that's only 1% of what I'm paying for the vehicle, and less than 5 months worth of auto insurance. Heck, it's less than the "destination fee" they hit me with! But it's not really about money. I have a bizarre mental disease that requires me to have the best motor oil I can find (at Walmart at least

) That way I can stop thinking about varnish and all that other crap in my engine, even though when I'm thinking lucidly I know it's not there...

I tried hard to convince myself to go back to conventional oil, but couldn't sleep at night - damm this board!

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...heck with it I'm using synthetic and sleeping good at night...

 

[Greaser]

By the way...all the changes I do for the Ladies I change oil for I use Mobil 1 ....why...because they are ALLWAYS 2-3000 miles overdue before they get back to me for an oil change...they know it and don't mind paying a few bucks more when I tell they can go a few miles overdue with this oil...as compared to dino oil....and they are happy with this