Natural Oil is just as good as Synthetic Oil (comments please).

[Amkeer]

Bottom line is if cheap is what you want and you are willing to gamble with cheap then so be it! I was there before and I don't have to learn twice. Learning experiences are just that "learning experiences". If you don't learn from the first mistake you are doomed to repeat it again.

If dino oil is what you feel good about using, use it! To say that dino is just as good as synthetics is false. You see dino just doesn't reach 3000-4000 miles and then it goes to crud it degrades from the start! In essence it starts wearing out immediately which is faster wear ratio than synth. So by the time you reach that critical mark for the majority the oil is toast.

The majority live in Metro areas which is indicative of severe service schedule. These conditions are better served with synth as reflected on my "real world experience".

I have seen plenty of motors get toasted on dino including my own. I have yet to see anyone complain about there motor getting toasted and they ran synth from the start. The uoa prove to me that the synth is worth the extra 5 or so dollars you will spend.

A Toyota technician informed me of his friend who has a 1984 toyota pickup with almost 600,000 miles and he has run synthetics M1 from the start. The motor still runs like new. These technicians recommend synth highly.

The main reason people choose dino over synthetics is $$$$$$ and they are uninformed.

 

[MNgopher]

I'm puzzled. I keep seeing posts of Dino oil is done at 3,000-4,000 miles, yet we see plenty of UOA's show up with 5,000 on dino and they look just fine.

Bob has a very valid point here, and it is something I have been taking more notice of. Is it the base oil or is it the additives that generate the better wear numbers. My take is the base oil has to do with staying in grade for extended service, the additives are there to deal with the wear. Witness the Shaeffer oils - great additive package that gives great results, but it isn't a synthetic.

I'm not saying synthetics are bad - they do excel under low temp operations in particular. Just noticing the same trend that Bob is noticing - different and perhaps better add packs in the synthetic oils.

In other words, which came first - the chicken or the egg?

 

[ALS]

Pablo what are you doing to that poor car? Three Turbos? You should be charged with Cruelity to a defenseless Sweed.

Just messing with you. My first Turbo Volvo a 81 242 had it's first turbo replaced at 40,000 miles. Volvo of America Replaced it out of warranty for free. Why do ask did they do that? I was driving the only Turbo unit that had ever made it past 30K miles. My 242 was also was very first Turbo Volvo in America. From what I heard everyone else was changing their oil at 5K as recommended or longer intervals. I was changing at 3000K miles.
My sister dated a guy in the seventies that drove a Porsche 911 turbo. Every twenty thousand miles he got to buy a new turbo.

 

[Dr. T]

Here, here Amkeer!!

Wow, this thread got out of hand. If you read my post, it's pretty simply. I said you COULD use both just fine. It's just Synthetics are a better lubricant, period. Or else we could all go back to Group I lubes.

Where is this proven? I'm sure in some Chem/Lube texts...heck even in the Group III vs. PAO thread last week in the PDF file from the NPRA dated 11/99, showed improved pour points, improved performance in the cold crank simulator, improved NOACK volatility and improved Oxidative stability over Group I or II oils. Likewise, no conventional oil is qualified as an "extended service/extended drain interval oil". As such, no "lifetime" fill tranny fluid is conventional oil.

So, I said...it's pretty much the same as 86 octane vs. 94. Either oil and gas WILL work...but synthetics are a better lube...and your car may ping less and may have cleaner injectors with better octane...so the difference boils down to whether you need it...or care to pay for it...

 

[Amkeer]

lol

 

[LM]

When extreme hot & cold temps, and extended drain intervals aren't substantial concerns, aren't the UOAs showing that (possibly the best of) both synth and dino do equally well?

 

[Dan4510]

One thing that is different in my belief is how well synthetics keep the engine clean. I have torn down several engines, the synthetic oil engines invariably are almost spottless on the inside while the dino oil had crud even with 3k oil changes.

Also, I like the much higher film strength of synthetics. Keep metal parts from rubbing= longer life of the engine. Breakin needs to be done on dino oil though.

Just my $.02

Dan

 

[rob-the-oil-nut]

quote:

---

Originally posted by LM:
aren't the UOAs showing that (possibly the best of) both synth and dino do equally well?

---

I humbly submit that MY results show RedLine after 10 months and 14,000 Km outperformed Esso Protec (not that I am saying that that is a top-notch dino) with under 1 month / 1000 Km on it. And the Esso was after the addition of a by-pass filter. How did that 200 micron booger get in there??
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000528
- Rob

 

[keith]

I drive about 15K miles per year. Worst case - use synthetic oil and change at 3K intervals. 5 qts. M1 @ $4/qt. = $20. Filter - be generous and go $5. That is $25*5 = $125 per year.

Gas - 25mpg @ $1.50 / gallon. Total gas cost - $900.

Insurance, tires, depreciation, other maintenance, misc. - not sure, but it adds up to many $thousand.

The IRS allows $0.36 per mile, so let's use their figures. 15,000*0.36 = $5400 to run that car for 1 year.

The cost of synthetic oil is 125/5400 approx. = 2% of the total running cost. That is based on IRS figures, most cars are more than $0.36 per mile to run.

Is the savings of using dino oil a big savings for most drivers? Absolutely NOT. I can for sure see the benefit to truck fleets - but they would likely be looking at bypass filters and very extended drains.

If you have an oil burning junker, dino makes sense.

If you have a half way decent ride, the cost savings of dino are not significant.

If you change at 3K mile intervals and don't abuse the car, PROBABLY synthetic is overkill.

If you go to a longer drain interval, synthetic gives you an extra safety margin. Really long drain intervals should not be undertaken without UOA. The cost of UOA is very low when considering the total cost of running a car.

The economics argument for and against dino and synthetic is very much a non issue for the majority.

Keith.

 

[TheMechanic]

what I think bob is saying is that when a HC is saturated with H, it leaves little opprotunity for O2 to react with it. I think the bennifit of synthetics (including group IIIs) is that they can provide a longer service life when formulated with additives properly and offer better thermal protection at the hot and cold temperature extremes that the oil may or may not ever see, but provide very little if any gain in efficiency or lubrication protection once at, but not exceeding normal operating temperatures when compared to lubricants manufactured from conventional base stocks.

 

[JohnBrowning]

In the earlier post I was playing devils advocate with the $.84 SuperTech/Tech2000 oil! I do have standards!! THeir is a reason that NASA, ARMY,NAVY,MARINE Corp., Coast Quard use synthetics in evarything that has an engine gas, diesel,turbine or scram jet!!! Even hard drives use synthetic oil. It will not be too much longer before all oils will be group III or higher just to meet emmison and fuel ecconomy standards!!! When they start selling group III oils for $1.19 a quart I will switch from true synthetics but not until then!!!

 

[JohnBrowning]

Lets remember that the reason that synthetics were developed to the point that they are now is due in part to the military. The military had real issues with dino oil. In cold artic conditions it jelled and the equipment had to be left runing almost around the clock cutting inot fuel supply and engine life. In craped engine capartments suronded by armour plate the oil would break down quickly due to heat saturation even after the engine was turned off. Then the advent of jets engines came along. Dino oil just could not take the combination of RPM's, internal heat with air charges coming in at -80 degrees, and tons of fuel was! My uncle tested Super Sabers and he talked about the problems they had with fluctateing oil pressure at 90,000 feet! I do not like it if I see flucuateing oil pressure in my parking lot! Most of Hitlers problems in trying to take Soviets dureing the winter could have been solved by large scale use of synthetic oil and diesel fuel additives. Their is also not a a single professional race team running dino oil! Most factory lubes are either synthetic blends or they are 100% synthetic. All GM trucks come filled with synthetic in both diff's, crank case and group III in transmission. GM has elimanated the drain plug in trucks and SUV's equipted with 8.652 rear diff. They also did away with a recomened drain and refill for this rear diff. The reason they did this was because synthetic lubes are so effective that it is impossable to establish a required drain interval. They now consider it lubed for life. This was about 6 mounths ago that this went into effect. SO from here on out the new service manuals will reflect this and so will the owners manual once the current supply is exhausted! THe evidence even if indirect is all around you. Their have been numerious SAE paper on the subject. I do not know of an additive around that will allow a dino base stock to carry a 6000 psi load like a good ester base stock can. I have not seen an additive in a dino oil that will allow any API aproved dino oil to flow at -84 or suvive 500 degrees. I have also not seen a dino oil additive that will allow it to get into the metal and lift out contaimanets with out sacrificeing lubricity. I also have the privlage of seeing alot of engines self destruct slowly on the German autobahn at daily average speeds around 150-200 miles per hour. Like another poster said dino will work fine but synthetics are better. The white papers alon tell volumes about their suppior base stocks!

 

[Greg]

sorry to say but my honda civic does not have a jet engine and it runs just fine with regular oil.

 

[mikemc]

I definitely feel synthetics have their place. In arctic conditions where temps regularly stay below zero, for extended drain intervals (that's another whole debate, I believe in 3K and out), extreme heat, and so on. Synthetic is probably the way to go in trannies and diferentials. For engine oil, I still believe most folks living in more moderate climates are better served with a good but inexpensive dino and short intervals.

 

[TooSlick]

New types of PAO and Ester basestocks are continually being developed, with even better properties. In addition, most of the improvements in petroleum oils over the last twenty years have come about through the development of new chemical additives. These same additives are also available to blend with synthetic basestocks, which have inherently better physical/chemical properties and no impurities. So the idea that petroleum oils are somehow catching up to synthetics is sort of wishful thinking. With API and ACEA specifications becoming more and more stringent, in about 10 years the cheapest oil you buy will probably be a Group II/Group III blend or PAO/Group II synthetic blend. Once drain intervals are pushed out past 10,000 miles, it will be the end of most conventional petroleum oils. Take a look at the ACEA, A3/B4 quality oils available in Europe - they are primarily full synthetics with a small percentage of synthetic blends ....

Somewhere in the house I have a spec sheet for the original Amsoil 10w-40 synthetic that dates back to 1978. At that time the SE/CC formulation had a flash point of +470F and a pour point of -60F, with a VI of about 170. That was an oil that is several generations removed from the top tier synthetics available today in terms of basestock/additive chemistry.

I have been averaging 15,000 mile/1 year drain intervals for the past 25 years with extremely good results. Oil analysis shows very low wear rates and physical inspection shows the engine stay very clean inside. I normally sell my vehicles after 10-12 years and the engines/transmissions are still going strong. The idea of changing oil every 3000 miles is a complete waste of time and resources. Of course I'm not exactly unbiased in this regard ...

Tooslick

 

[Schmoe]

Well, shiver me timbers, matey.......If I was ever kind of confused before, I am REALLY confused now. Where is the love??????? Seems like my fellow dino brethren are getting beat unmercifully.

 

[3 Mad Ponchos]

If you want to say dino oil is scientifically equal to or better than synthetic oil, you'll have a tough time of it...

If you want to say it makes more economical sense, then you're introducing a zillion usage variables that makes the answer very different for different people... that's why people get bent out of shape for the dino/synth argument, they've discovered one is a clear winner for THEIR circumstance, and are so happy with that discovery that they won't let go and realize their answer is not valid for others.

I like synths for the peace of mind of having that extra margin, not worrying about somewhat extended intervals, knowing that whatever flogging I give the car the oil will be on the job for a very long time, probably well past 200k of engine life. But, when people ask me what kind of oil they should use, mostly they're not worried about extended drain intervals and they'll probably start thinking about selling the car at 100k, and probably doing it before 120-130k. Also most people seldom crack the throttle past 3/4 travel, so most cars don't take the flogging mine do.

So I usually tell people to just use whatever, being sure to adhere to 3k intervals, because that's all they want to hear anyway, and it'll serve them well. I figure most dino oils in most cars are probably good for more like 5k, so when they miss their 3k interval by 1k they won't have done any real harm.

Now, if they're gearheads, then my answer is different, but most gearheads don't ask what oil to use, coz their minds are already made up.

Cheers, 3MP

 

[joe4324]

hehe well lets do it, If any group of people should be able to figure out in the "end" (were-ever that is!) wich is the best way to go for a given appilcation it would this this forum right? lets put together a spreadsheet/forumla trying to take "everything" into account that we can possibly think of and create a little forumla were you input certian fields and options (prices of oil, desired drain intervel, driving conditions, weather conditions, etc) and see if we can actually come up something!

Or I'm just talk out my rear, (as I often do) and you can all tell me to shut up!

 

[G-MAN]

I only take issue with one thing TooSlick said above: most of the improvements in petroleum oils over the last 20 years has come from improvements in base oil refining technologies, most notably Chevron's patented hydrocracking and isodewaxing method. This process is licensed by numerous other oil companies and is rapidly becoming the preferred way to produce Group II, II+, and III. ExxonMobil has a similar process called MSDW which it also licenses to third parties. And of course, the last couple of years have seen GTL plants coming on line (Shell in Malaysia, for example) that are producing waxy raffinate feedstocks for straight wax isomerization into Group III (or what ExxonMobil is choosing to call Group III+).

 

[MNgopher]

I can think of one "fill for life" fluid that is not synthetic - Mercon V in some Ford tranny applications that are sealed for life now. That fluid is at best a blend.