What we have here is a willful refusal to comprehend.
Nano Pro MT Oil Stabilzer
- Thread starter Nitro1320
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4WD
$50 site donor 2024
At one time … when threads turned to garbage they’d get locked …
Poured out of the bottle at 80 F room temp like ATF.
As for links, I spent a week or so bouncing around various forums and articles on the net NA and Euro sites in my spare time.I cannot remember where all I went.Due to finances I tend to drive older high mileage vehicles while the wife gets the better stuff.So anything that may help a high mileage engine last longer I'll look into.That means I usually do a bit of research before I buy.This one seemed interesting so I gave it a shot.
This was my original post:A 0w-40 won't be thinner than a 5w-30
If you want to have the discussion on how this works, I'm more than willing, but before I bother explaining, please let me know if you are honestly interested.
Just a quick addendum, viscosity curves have been plotted here over the years. Not sure if you are familiar with the relationship reflected by VI, but a 5w-20 with a higher VI than a 0w-20 can be thinner at start-up until you get quite a ways below zero.
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As far as that goes, why not a 0W40? It would get flowing faster than the three you mentioned.
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At no time did I say a 0W-40 would be thinner than a 5W-30. I said a 0W-40 would begin flowing faster than a 15W-40 or a 10W-40 or a 5W-40.
I would appreciate seeing those viscosity curves and an explanation as to how a 5W-20 can be thinner than a 0W-20 at startup. Presuming that startup is at 70* or so.
Although I have been a member of BITOG for about 10 years, I haven't paid any attention to it for the past 8 years. So I have an 8 year gap in my knowledge and thus, in some respects, am a noob.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Doesn't even need to be 70F, it can be far lower.
You'll see VI referenced on oil Product Data Sheets, VI is a calculated value based on the difference (rate of change) between the 40C visc and 100C visc of an oil. The lower the rate of change (the less the oil changes in viscosity between those two points) the higher the VI. This results in a less dramatic curve. PAO base oils have naturally higher VI's than lower group bases, for example, Mobil SpectraSyn 6 (5.8cSt) has a VI of 138, SpectraSyn 4, 126. High VI's are achieved in finished products by using light bases (thin) whose characteristics are modified using polymer (VII) compounds that "pad" the viscosity. So a 4cSt GTL base for example can be pumped up to 8.5cSt using VII, and the end product would have a higher VI because of this, since the 4cSt base is thin and the VII "coils" compress as the temperature drops, reducing their impact on the viscosity of the product.
Even amongst 0w-20's, there are a huge range of VI's, M1 AFE 0w-20 for example, has a MUCH lower VI (167 IIRC) than Toyota 0w-20, which was like 203.
So, let's look at two examples:
1. Pennzoil Extended Care 0w-20:
Shell Helix Ultra 5w-20:
Right away, you can see that the 0w-20, despite being thinner at 100C, is heavier at 40C. The VI on the 5w-20 is 167, the VI on the 0w-20 is 160. Not a big difference (we've seen larger ones).
So, how does this plot? Visc calculators aren't accurate much below 0C, but you can clearly see that the 5w-20 remains thinner the entire time:
At some point below 0C, the 5w-20 will begin to thicken more than the 0w-20. This is easy to see when you look at the CCS figures, with the 0w-20 having a lower CCS at -35C than the 5w-20 does at -30C. This is due to wax crystal formation (which is what PPD's are added to mitigate the effects of) which drives up the viscosity, and this isn't factored for in viscosity calculators; it can't be.
PAO-based 0w-20's often have relatively low VI's because they don't use much VII. Ravenol's ECS 0w-20 has a VI of 156 for example. They can be blended with heavier bases and still achieve their Winter rating, which is why the VI isn't much higher than that of some of the PAO base oils. I suspect a blend of SpectraSyn 6 and 10 could be used to make a 0w-20 without any VII, or very little. This means they are incredibly shear resistant.
So, is a larger VI better or worse? Say you're comparing two 0W-30 oils. One has a VI of 200 and the other 173. Which is better?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
It's just a characteristic of the oil, but one that typically depends on how much VII is used in the formulation. Oils with very high VI's will have more VII polymer in them because the only way to achieve that is to use thinner base oils that are "pumped up" to the target hot viscosity with VII in that manner.
Many of the Japanese oils had VI's above 200 because it meant they were thinner overall during most startup conditions, improving fuel economy. This is in stark contrast to oils like M1 EP 0w-20 or Ravenol ECS 0w-20, both of which will have lower VI's because of the low VII dose. This is due to the use of PAO in the base oil blend.
In your examples, I'd likely choose the oil with the VI of 173, because it has less plastic in it.
And as been explained multiple times that flow is irrelevant. And no, the 0W rated oil will not flow faster unless you are at a very low temperature. At any reasonable ambient it will not flow faster, not that it matters either. Besides, how can something flow faster yet not be thinner? Physics matters.
Why do you keep posting the same nonsense when it has been carefully explained to you why your statement(s) are in error? Can an old cowboy learn new tricks? Please take the time to read and comprehend what Overkill posted above.
Well, at least Overkill explained it to me calmly and thoroughly, not rudely mocking me like you have.
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