possibly overtreated engine oil with LubeGard

OVERKILL

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Probably talking about the poor engineering choice of using a SADI core with a roller lifter that has a practically designed-in tendency to bounce on the lobe, causing damage to the roller, spalling of the lobe, and/or general failure after ingesting enough of its own parts o_O

IMO essentially every "green" technology they've introduced to save fuel (DoD, MDS, VVT, AFM, kitchen sink, etc) have so negatively affected the reliability of previously solid engine designs that it's an absolute guarantee the owner has wasted more energy fixing their vehicle than the green technology would ever have saved! We have failed cams. Failed lifters. Failed phasers. No way were these technologies a net win for the consumer!
According to our resident FCA tech, the defective lifters have soft (improperly hardened) pins or wheels that develop grooves in them that ultimately cause the needles to pile-up and stop rolling, and, as soon as that happens, the 'ol SADI camshaft says goodbye to its surface-hardened lobe. This is supported by the evidence I've seen where some of the lifters that have failed aren't the MDS ones, rather, they are the normal lifters.

GM appears to suffer from the same issue, despite using billet cores, and if anything, the issue is even more prevalent.
 
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Isn't Lubeguard basically an ester? If so I can't imagine adding more ester to an already ester heavy oil like Redline would do any good.
 
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@Hall I believe they would say strictly replacement, but I've heard that a certain, reasonable amount of overfill is fine if not useful. In this case, no overfill, just 50% more concentration than what I've read.
I wouldn't lose sleep over having an add'l 1/2 quart above the regular capacity but a full quart, that might be a little too much.
 

capacitor

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It's at 7 quarts (6 oil, 1 LG) so in this particular respect, I'm gtg.

I'll check it with a mechanical gauge stat.

Thanks for all the help with this.
 

capacitor

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Just a few quick notes: ECO light comes on now that the ECM codes are clear. No funky driving issues or noises. I'm manually keeping the idle speed high while I warm it up.

I'll do a detailed analysis now that there's fresh oil in there. First up is testing the sensor of course. Next is checking for pending misfires (AlfaODB) and popping the valve covers off.

Finally, these are the same symptoms: https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/Discussion-d665_ds636691

The OP said the problem was caused by MDS (we know that's not necessarily the case of course) and that a lifter went bad. Crossing fingers but I could have worse problems.
 

OVERKILL

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Just use a search engine. The info is out there.
I highly recommend using the search function on this board and searching for HEMI lifter failure, which has been covered in-depth. If you want, you can refine that a bit by searching it and my username.

TLDR: There isn't a "design flaw" unless you consider poor QC on the lifters one.
 

capacitor

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Yeah, I too thought earlier there might be a design issue. I'm way still in the learning mode for sure. I ran across a great analysis by someone, saying that in a nutshell if there was an actual design issue, most/close to all of the engines would be failing. That's definitely not the case.

I would love to think that a correctly built Hemi (especially using some of the latest lifters) would last for 150k-200k, with proper care of course. I may have to test that theory.

If there is one it would be that they didn't over engineer the oiling system, to account for supplier materials issues (eg lifter bearings) :)

I do think they should have had a forged cam in there, and I've read that originally they said they would (when introducing the redesign), then changed their mind.
 

OVERKILL

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Yeah, I too thought earlier there might be a design issue. I'm way still in the learning mode for sure. I ran across a great analysis by someone, saying that in a nutshell if there was an actual design issue, most/close to all of the engines would be failing. That's definitely not the case.

I would love to think that a correctly built Hemi (especially using some of the latest lifters) would last for 150k-200k, with proper care of course. I may have to test that theory.

If there is one it would be that they didn't over engineer the oiling system, to account for supplier materials issues (eg lifter bearings) :)

I do think they should have had a forged cam in there, and I've read that originally they said they would (when introducing the redesign), then changed their mind.
We have a small fleet of them at work, the oldest are all 2011/2012 vintage and are all over 200,000 miles. We did lose one to lifter failure. It never ticked, but when the lifter went, it developed a "chirp" noise. Still ran fine, is the wild part. The rest of them are all still going without issue. These have spent pretty much their entire life being serviced with bulk 5W-20 from NAPA and NAPA filters.

And yes, exactly, if there was a fundamental design issue with the engine, all of them would succumb to it and there wouldn't be a lot of variability in when it happens. But of course it's not a design issue, it's a problem with poor QC with the roller lifters, the same problem GM is having with their AFM engines. Sometimes, the lifter packs it in very early on, other times, with better, but still defective hardening, they will go hundreds of thousands of miles before failing.
 

capacitor

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Now that's great to hear :)

I'm going to assume some worst case stuff with my particular situation: the oil pressure is low because of excessive bearing clearances (cheap crate engine), and the cam is already getting scored because at least one lifter is no longer rolling. What I'll try to do is get a better oil pump in there, backflushing the pickup tube/screen, then plan on a rebuild if things don't magically get better, haha!

I will debug like I planned before, starting with testing the Autozone Dorman oil pressure sending unit, and pull the valve covers to look at the lifter. However I'm setting my expectations really low based on what I've been learning.

Bottom line, if I have to build up an engine (or buy one that's already done correctly) I do not mind doing so.
 
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I highly recommend using the search function on this board and searching for HEMI lifter failure, which has been covered in-depth. If you want, you can refine that a bit by searching it and my username.

TLDR: There isn't a "design flaw" unless you consider poor QC on the lifters one.
I only have so much interest in newer Hemi engines but did watch a video by a mechanic where he explained the design flaw. It's been a while or I could quote the problems for you. Besides all the articles about it over the years.
 

JTK

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If you can believe the digital displays for oil pressure on my 2019 Ram 1500 classic with hemi, my cold start oil pressure can be as high as 60psig. Hot idle is always around 30psig.
 

OVERKILL

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I only have so much interest in newer Hemi engines but did watch a video by a mechanic where he explained the design flaw. It's been a while or I could quote the problems for you. Besides all the articles about it over the years.
I'm aware of the video, I covered it in several threads, which is why I suggested you use the search function, this has all been covered, extensively. Was it the Uncle Tony video by chance?
 
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I think so. I have little knowledge of Dodge v8 engines after the seventies. I did drive a Challenger in high school and my dad worked for Chrysler.
In the mid-seventies, I washed cars at a dodge dealer when they were selling those little red express trucks. That's where I found my challenger in the wholesale lot. In about 1970 my dad worked at a dodge dealer and brought home new cars like challengers and chargers to make money by putting an AC unit in the car after dinner. I know one thing about newer vehicles, if you own one and it has no warranty you will be shocked at how expensive the parts are, and the labor. My dad worked his way up from being a mechanic to being a service manager and even a Chrysler factory rep for a while. sorry to ramble.
 

capacitor

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Hey folks, it looks like the oil pickup tube was not designed to function correctly with a missing bolt:


/poorattemptathumor
 

OVERKILL

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Hey folks, it looks like the oil pickup tube was not designed to function correctly with a missing bolt:


/poorattemptathumor
Interesting thread there. Keep us updated on what you find with a mechanical gauge. I don't agree with the guy there that 4psi is fine, that's really freakin' low and means worn bearings or something not being right.
 

capacitor

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I agree and my ears do too.

Come to find out that the oil pickup tube is plastic as well, integrated into the oil pan (fixed in position), and there is no bolt in this application.

Here's an example (note the tube sticks up and is fixed in place:


I'm looking at the o-ring and pickup screen carefully and going from there. My initial photos show a lack of symmetry (for want of a better description) where the oil tube goes into the pump, but it could be the angle of the endoscope.
 

capacitor

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Just a quick update. It looks like the o-ring is split, and the pickup tube doesn't seem to perfectly align into the oil pump. I'll see if I can get some excerpts from the borescoping effort and from the oil pump replacement. I'm not at all a fan of this integrated-into-pan pickup tube.

In my humble opinion (after the brakes) the oiling system in an engine is near/at the top of the list of important things that should be 100% immune from issues due to stacked tolerances.
 

OVERKILL

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Just a quick update. It looks like the o-ring is split, and the pickup tube doesn't seem to perfectly align into the oil pump. I'll see if I can get some excerpts from the borescoping effort and from the oil pump replacement. I'm not at all a fan of this integrated-into-pan pickup tube.

In my humble opinion (after the brakes) the oiling system in an engine is near/at the top of the list of important things that should be 100% immune from issues due to stacked tolerances.
Interesting development! Sounds very similar to the GM o-ring issue on the LSx engines. I've never heard of it with the HEMI, but @clinebarger would be more familiar overall with the problem. Keep us updated!
 
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