Mystik by Citgo 100% gas, same as Citgo

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha

Originally Posted By: y_p_w

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha

Additive packages are sophisticated enough now that testing of additized gasoline can tell whose pahckage it is, or maybe more importantly, isn't. You've maybe seen the Exxon commercials where they refer to marker moleculss as the final ingredient? That type technology has been in play for well over a decade now, Exxon commercials are the first I've heard publicly advertise it (but not really go into depth on the subject of any of the ingredients of course). It's more than just for determining additive package concentration. http://synergy.exxon.com/

I suspect that ExxonMobil doesn't make their additive. There's nothing on the EPA approved list of certified detergent additives from ExxonMobil or Infineum. It wouldn't surprise me if it was actually developed as a proprietary additive by one of the large chemical companies, like how Costco had Lubrizol develop Lubrizol 9888 as their own proprietary additive. The BP Amoco additive is listed as being made by Innospec. However, I suppose that doesn't preclude them from using the additive as a "tracer" as you suggest. https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/fuels1/ffars/web-detrg.htm

What I'm saying is some companies have used different "marker molecules" in their additive packages for years, regardless of who makes the additive package, to identify fuel spiked with their brand's additive package. AFAIK there's no legislative requirement for this, it's something each company /branding can decide on. I know Diamond Shamrock, who Valero got their first entry to retail through, did not. However treat rates for different customers were in fact different. Now it's 15 or more years down the road. Now Valero has sold all their retail originally to Corner Stores, now they're owned by Couche Tarde, and Valero's CEO complains on how RINs are applied with no company owned retail arm. Here in San Antonio, the home HQ for Valero, there are some Shell corner stores and probably a few other brands. As Valero is now back to being a pure merchant refiner, I see no incentive for there to be a Valero additive package with Valero specific "marker molecules". Just meetint Top Tier should be sufficient. Costco wouldn't need "marker molecules" since they additize solely at point of sale.

I understand why a company would want to make their additive traceable. They have an incentive to monitor their franchisees to make sure that they're not buying fuel on the spot market and claiming that they need less fuel via their franchise contract. I frankly have no idea how the Valero retail name is marketed around here. I get that often there are regional rights to specific retail brand names, like how the Arco brand is owned by Tesoro, but controlled by them in some regions but licensed to BP in other regions. I looked up Corner Store's website, and they only list locations from Arizona to Mississippi, where I suppose many are Valero branded. However, around here many of the Valero retail locations are co-branded with the Corner Store convenience store brand although it sounds like more of a licensing agreement. The really odd thing is how so many gas stations around here are now Mobil or Exxon branded, even after those brands mostly vanished around here for over 20 years. I can look up the franchise names, and many actually say Tesoro, like this one: https://www.exxon.com/en/gas-station/sanpablo-ca-tesoro68208-320295 And of course the convenience store sales are typically where the gas station actually makes money. I know BP owns the ampm name attached to many Arco stations. Chevron has their ExtraMile brand. I've seen 76 stations cobranded with Circle K, although I know that's a separate chain. Around here, Shell stations might simply say a generic "Food Mart" on the side, although I remember some that have some proprietary brand name.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha

Additive packages are sophisticated enough now that testing of additized gasoline can tell whose package it is, or maybe more importantly, isn't.

Yes, they've been advertising the marker molecules the same way up here when they unveiled Synergy up here. Of course, there are other ways they check the honesty of their retailers, but that certainly helps.

 

[Nyogtha]

This is from 2013 when Valero divested of all retail forming CST Brands. It's ironic for this former Diamond Shamrock employee as it was the retail arm that drove Valero's desire to purchase then Ultramar Diamond Shamrock early last decade so Valero could be more than just a pure merchant refiner (and then natural gas & NGL processor) like it had been since its inception decades earlier as a spinoff from Coastal Corp. http://m1.marketwatch.com/articles/BL-MW245B-330?tesla=y&tesla=y Purchase of CST Brands by Couche Tard https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN19H1Z9 In Califonia rights to a limited number of retail stations including brand have often been part of the sales contract of a specific refinery, largely driven by state / area gasoline specs and keeping a retail footprint outlet for fuel made to such restrictive specs. In Texas its not such a matter of boutique fuels that Motiva / Saudi Aramco purchased numerous Shell logistics assets and Shell branding rights with the divorce between Shell and Saudi ARAMCO. It's about investment footprint beyond being a pure merchant refiner in the USA. http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/01/investin...thur/index.html

 

[OilSwag]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime

You drove 20 miles (40 miles roundtrip) to fill up your gas tank? Did I read that right?

For a chance at 93 E0 yes but I was headed that way anyway so it was just a few miles out of my way. Maybe 93 E0 is readily available in your area but I'm limited to only unbranded midnight oil 93 E0 as my only option.

 

[OilSwag]

Nyogtha I did watch that video. I appreciate it but like anything else related to fuel it was a minimal interview. 98% of the interview was standing outside by the refinery fence and a split second in the computer room. Even a patent application is open to the public with more specific details than we get about fuel with pictures and diagrams years before the product is available. Sure we know the refineries but I want to know the end result. The industry standard has came to all gas is the same or it's all great is garbage. Sure there are trade secrets, but you can pretty much get an ingredient list to almost anything these days. As a consumer we should at least have options like choosing what additive package or not. The total ingredient list is almost endless that could be in gasoline. History has proven gas, oil, materials and so on have came with horrible chemicals that were once great and proven to be harmful to humans, machines, environnent later. Lead to MTBE and the countless other names spell check won't search for. MTBE issues were being found in water with a push from Farmers with ethanol. Doesn't mean ethanol is the greatest thing ever. They needed an excuse to use ethanol and make MTBE look bad. I might be wrong on this but isn't ethanol gas banned from water usage and lawn use or advised against. They say only because of water contaminating the tanks and fuel supplies. One day California and some other states is gonna find ethanol in the water supply and something else is gonna be pushed. I'm not in the position to say what is best, whats better, sure in a tuned app E85 will make a Lamborghini run like no other. But as an American this ethanol thing is wrong. People done tell us what should be put on my hamburger, with only certain options or if I have to run lithium ion batteries in my camera or I can use disposable. Should we not be entitled to pretty much know what is going in our 2nd most expensive lifetime purchases next to our living expenses.

 

[Nyogtha]

Guess you didn't think it pertinent that video did show all fuels in the Mid-South area regardless of retail brand came from that facility. Does that describe the geographic area where you bought your fuel? Loading 300 trucks a day at a clean products rack equates to about 2.5 million gallons of gasoline & diesel a day moving across that rack, asduming all jet fuel leaves via pipeline or water. There are some branches off a common cartier pipeline further east in Tennessee.

 

[Nyogtha]

MTBE is still widley used outdide the USA, including Europe. It's clearly evident Europe policed underground storage tanks to a much better degree than the USA did. Here we have both oxygenate requirements snd renewable fuel standards. I think it'll take dome significant breakthrough to find something yhat fits both requirements, or a change in requirements, for something else to be used. None of my posts have ever indicated I think ethanol is great. I don't even drink the stuff. Whrn I was a gasoline blendineer, I don't think I ever used the same recipe twice. Each day was a balancing act between changes in Corporate Marketing demand volume schedules, unit production rates & constrants, and tank inventories. Trying to define one specific composition for all gasoline is unrealistic. That was with no oxygenates nor RINs, and no petrochemical BTX production. It was a straight fuels refinery at that tine outside of exporting some refinery grade propylene to Mont Belvieu and a process oils unit using a specific highly naphthenic crude mix to produce what was then acceptabke lube stocks and process oils seperate from the main refinery processing.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: OilSwag

Nyogtha I did watch that video. I appreciate it but like anything else related to fuel it was a minimal interview. 98% of the interview was standing outside by the refinery fence and a split second in the computer room. Even a patent application is open to the public with more specific details than we get about fuel with pictures and diagrams years before the product is available. Sure we know the refineries but I want to know the end result. The industry standard has came to all gas is the same or it's all great is garbage. Sure there are trade secrets, but you can pretty much get an ingredient list to almost anything these days. As a consumer we should at least have options like choosing what additive package or not. The total ingredient list is almost endless that could be in gasoline. History has proven gas, oil, materials and so on have came with horrible chemicals that were once great and proven to be harmful to humans, machines, environnent later. Lead to MTBE and the countless other names spell check won't search for. MTBE issues were being found in water with a push from Farmers with ethanol. Doesn't mean ethanol is the greatest thing ever. They needed an excuse to use ethanol and make MTBE look bad. I might be wrong on this but isn't ethanol gas banned from water usage and lawn use or advised against. They say only because of water contaminating the tanks and fuel supplies. One day California and some other states is gonna find ethanol in the water supply and something else is gonna be pushed. I'm not in the position to say what is best, whats better, sure in a tuned app E85 will make a Lamborghini run like no other. But as an American this ethanol thing is wrong. People done tell us what should be put on my hamburger, with only certain options or if I have to run lithium ion batteries in my camera or I can use disposable. Should we not be entitled to pretty much know what is going in our 2nd most expensive lifetime purchases next to our living expenses.

What's this ethanol contamination you talk about? MTBE contaminating water supplies is bad. Ethanol contaminating water supplies is nothing. The biggest problem with MTBE is that it creates an unpleasant taste when present in water. Ethanol won't. It's almost impossible to give a precise ingredient list for gasoline. In general you can probably give a long list of over a hundred different hydrocarbons that can be in there. And frankly it's irrelevant to whether or not it's good fuel. It's made as a commodity and sold as a commodity. That's good enough. As for "water or lawn use" there's nothing that makes it banned per se. The issue with those are that they often sit around for a long time and are vented to the atmosphere.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: OilSwag

I might be wrong on this but isn't ethanol gas banned from water usage and lawn use or advised against. They say only because of water contaminating the tanks and fuel supplies.

OK - you're wrong. It's not banned. The primary reason is that marine engine fuel systems aren't sealed, on top of being in an extremely wet environment. Heck - I remember years ago my dad took the family out in Lake Tahoe on a boat with an outboard motor. We had problems getting it to start, and the employee showed us that the gas cap was on too tight and it needed a little air to work. On top of that, a lot of marine motors are left unused for long periods of time. Most people gas up their lawnmowers and other power equipment with gasoline sold at the local gas station and do it with no problem. Granted I've seen a little used lawnmower stop working because the fuel phase separated, but simply using it and leaving it with minimal fuel before storage would have prevented that. I've also heard of special power equipment gasoline sold at places like Home Depot. That's if you're willing to pay $35 for 1.5 gallons. http://www.homedepot.com/p/TruFuel-4-Cycle-Ethanol-Free-Fuel-6-Pack-6527238/203572162 Even then, there are a ton of myths that ethanol is that bad in a marine environment. http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/december/ethanol.asp The biggest problem seems to be keeping tanks low, which then increases the risk of condensation. And if you have condensation in ethanol free fuel, it doesn't even blend properly but whatever water in the system pools together.

Quote:

https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Busting-Ethanol-Fuel-Myths MYTH: Ethanol-blended fuels are bad and should be avoided. TRUTH: Ethanol blended fuels (E10) are common throughout much of the United States. After the transition period from non-ethanol fuel, E10 may actually be a superior marine fuel, as it tends to keep low levels of water moving through the fuel system, keeping the system “dry”. For over a decade, marine engines have been engineered to handle E10 gasoline. However, all types of fuels should be treated if they won’t be used in a few weeks.

 

[Nyogtha]

OilSwag, You can probably find ethanol in the same water systems now that MTBE was previously found in due to the way we treated underground storage tanks in this country. So what's the lethal concentration of ethanol in water? Last I knew 190 proof liquors were still legal - 90% alcohol and 10% water. That's one more reason ethanol was pushed instead if MTBE. But both substances are very effective biocides that killed the microorganisms that had been metabolizing the gasoline without oxygenates that had been previously leaking from those same underground storage tanks before oxygenate requirements came into legislation. Ethanol blended gasoline BANNED from water or lawn use? Post up a link from anywhere that shows that to be true. Never heard of it.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha

You can probably find ethanol in the same water systems now that MTBE was previously found in due to the way we treated underground storage tanks in this country. So what's the lethal concentration of ethanol in water? Last I knew 190 proof liquors were still legal - 90% alcohol and 10% water. That's one more reason ethanol was pushed instead if MTBE.

I've heard even MTBE isn't known for being terribly toxic in the small amounts that had ended up in water supplies. It may even be less toxic than the hydrocarbons in gasoline. I thought that the problem is that small amounts in water, the presence of MTBE will result in a noticeable unpleasant taste. That's always been the main concern. Nobody wants to drink water that tastes like turpentine. Heck - I remember living in a place using local well water. The water district insisted that it was safe to drink, but it was absolutely foul tasting.

Quote:

https://archive.epa.gov/mtbe/web/html/water.html In December 1997, EPA issued a Drinking Water Advisory that states concentrations of MTBE in the range of 20 to 40 ppb of water or below will probably not cause unpleasant taste and odor for most people, recognizing that human sensitivity to taste and odor varies widely.

On top of that, there's natural ethanol in the environment. Rotting fruits and berries will ferment and wash into water supplies. Almost everyone ingests ethanol (and other alcohols) on a regular basis just by eating bread that's raised using yeast. If there is 100 ppb (or even 100x that) of ethanol in water that's not much of a concern. There's no health concerns and it's not going to change the taste.

 

[OilSwag]

I think people are misinterpreting my reply or I'm misinterpreting others replies. I understand fully most all gas in my area is probably from the Memphis refinery. There's no argument there. A map showing a chain of how gasoline is created from beginning to end shows it's going into 2 different storage facilities and than probably mixed with additives later on or even at the truck I don't know. I'm not sure if everyone is saying all gas is the same if it comes from Memphis? I'm noticing from timing, fuel trims, 02 sensors readings and air fuel sensors, and so on that there are big differences in gas in my area. I live in southeast, Tennessee on the Georgia border. Lately I've been filling 5 or gallons at a time experimenting. I'll give an example of what I'm saying. 2 Corvettes built in Bowling Green come off the assembly. At that time they are identical. 1 Corvette goes to the dealer and the dealer throws some add upgrades and post the car for sale. The other car goes to Callaway and gets alot of upgrades and than posted for sale at 2 different dealers in the city. Now we have 2 different cars that once we're exactly the same but of course are night and day difference. Let's pretend the cars aren't sold with any available info like a used car lot. Would someone say they are both the same identical car because we don't have a list of modifications. You can drive both cars and tell they feel different, they might smell the same and the color is the same but they are different. That's what I'm getting at with gas and my OP and my reply. I think some are reading into me wrong or looking for a dispute when their isn't a dispute. Thats all I'm saying is we should somewhat have an idea of what exactly we are investing in. I don't have a new car right now, so I don't have a huge investment in my current vehicle, in the past I have just depends on my hobbies at the time, lol. I can't say I agree with the above that menthol in water isn't that bad because we can't taste it. My opinion is anti ethanol at this time in my life. I think the pros and cons aren't close. My cars the last few years seem to be happier with E0-93 with datalogging and MPG.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: OilSwag

I think people are misinterpreting my reply or I'm misinterpreting others replies. I understand fully most all gas in my area is probably from the Memphis refinery. There's no argument there. A map showing a chain of how gasoline is created from beginning to end shows it's going into 2 different storage facilities and than probably mixed with additives later on or even at the truck I don't know. I'm not sure if everyone is saying all gas is the same if it comes from Memphis? I'm noticing from timing, fuel trims, 02 sensors readings and air fuel sensors, and so on that there are big differences in gas in my area. I live in southeast, Tennessee on the Georgia border. Lately I've been filling 5 or gallons at a time experimenting. I'll give an example of what I'm saying. 2 Corvettes built in Bowling Green come off the assembly. At that time they are identical. 1 Corvette goes to the dealer and the dealer throws some add upgrades and post the car for sale. The other car goes to Callaway and gets alot of upgrades and than posted for sale at 2 different dealers in the city. Now we have 2 different cars that once we're exactly the same but of course are night and day difference. Let's pretend the cars aren't sold with any available info like a used car lot. Would someone say they are both the same identical car because we don't have a list of modifications. You can drive both cars and tell they feel different, they might smell the same and the color is the same but they are different. That's what I'm getting at with gas and my OP and my reply. I think some are reading into me wrong or looking for a dispute when their isn't a dispute. Thats all I'm saying is we should somewhat have an idea of what exactly we are investing in. I don't have a new car right now, so I don't have a huge investment in my current vehicle, in the past I have just depends on my hobbies at the time, lol. I can't say I agree with the above that menthol in water isn't that bad because we can't taste it. My opinion is anti ethanol at this time in my life. I think the pros and cons aren't close. My cars the last few years seem to be happier with E0-93 with datalogging and MPG.

Again, the vast majority of fuel sold is a commodity. Fuel has been a commodity for over a century. It's a very complex process and you're obsessing about knowing exactly where it came from and what's in it? Even if it usually comes from one refinery, these places do all sorts of things like shut down, reduce output for maintenance, or deal with excess demand. I can guarantee you that the fuel you've bought has come from multiple sources at one time or another and possibly commingled with fuel from multiple refineries and multiple deliveries. Heck - the fuel from a single refinery could be different depending on when it was refined for any number of reasons including the crude oil source and demand for different petroleum products affecting the individual blending of refinery streams. They don't store the fuel with detergent additives at the depot. I understand there may be certain additives in the stored fuel There's a former oil tanker trucker posting here who described how it went. Each driver has a card key and each delivery already specifies all the parameters - who the driver is, who the seller is, how much fuel, what type of fuel, who the delivery is going to, etc. If ethanol is needed thats added. The detergent additive is selected. If it's a proprietary additive (think Chevron's Techron) then that comes from one of the additive tanks at the depot and that's metered into the tanker before the fuel. If it's a generic brand or an independent gas station, there there will be at least one "generic" additive that can be delivered. Then the fuel is delivered, which causes the additive to be "splash blended". Usually by the time the delivery reaches the gas station the additive is uniformly mixed. The one well know exception is Costco, which receives fuel without detergent additives and adds detergent from onsite tanks into the fuel tanks at the time of delivery. It may actually be possible to make a fuel where the chemical components are precisely known. I'm pretty sure that iso-octane/n-heptane test fuel is made precisely this way. Maybe even 100 octane racing fuel. However, this stuff is extremely expensive. In some threads power equipment specific fuel was mentioned, but it's apparently one where the exact composition is fixed and it costs something like $20 a gallon. If it really means that much to you, it's possible to get fuel that's as precisely made and sold. It depends on whether or not you're willing to pay more than $10 a gallon and pour it out of a 5 gallon can. https://vpracingfuels.com/product/c9/ Your analogy about modifications isn't comparable to the way fuel is made and isn't even a good analogy for a description of the selling of a vehicle. With fuel it's more like equivalent fuel being similar to equivalent multiple-sourced parts. Imagine a Toyota Camry engine being assembled in Georgetown, Kentucky. So they just happen to have Denso spark plugs at the plug assembly point. Then on another day they have NGK plugs. Heck - I've heard of people who pulled out the factory plugs on a V-6 and found that half the plugs were NGK and half Denso. There are hundreds of different parts in any car that might have multiple sources where they're built to a spec. Even if there are some differences, they're equivalent enough that one manufacturer vs another is hardly anything that affects the final quality.

 

[SHOPete]

http://www.citgo.com/NewsViews/PressReleases/Archive/CITGOOffersMystikBrand.jsp

 

[4WD]

Had avoided Citgo over Hugo - but many boaters around here swear by JT6 green tube and now I do too ... the near clear color helps me know when to stop pumping grease into TieDown spindle ...