The main problem is most people never check their oil level - or top off. Extended drains on a car that is constantly topped off don't hurt much IMO. The short intervals recommended by techs probably help the average clueless consumer who only think a car needs fuel.
most techs recommended frequent oci
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3 factors come into play.
1. It's old school thinking that in a lot of cases is irrelevant/obsolete due to advances in oil technology.
2. They have a vested interest in getting you into the w/shop more regularly, so it underpins the psychology behind their belief system.
3. In a lot of cases, oil changes are probably the only thing they really "know" anything about, as it's the very first thing they actually learn how to do with proficiency when they start out.
1. It's old school thinking that in a lot of cases is irrelevant/obsolete due to advances in oil technology.
2. They have a vested interest in getting you into the w/shop more regularly, so it underpins the psychology behind their belief system.
3. In a lot of cases, oil changes are probably the only thing they really "know" anything about, as it's the very first thing they actually learn how to do with proficiency when they start out.
Probably the same as a surgeon. They seem to recommend SURGERY!
You have to remember that they see the worst offenders:
- Chronically short-tripped cars that don't have an OLM.
- Engines that don't perform under OEM recommendations (like the sludging Toyota and VW engines).
- Owners that are always late on their oil change (tell them 3k and it will be 6k, etc).
- Owners that don't add top-up oil.
Of course they do. Job security.
Originally Posted By: ram_man
Originally Posted By: jsfalls
I think 3-5k should apply to most drivers actually ... a majority of people don't even open their own hood or check tire pressure between services, I service a few vehicles daily that have no oil on the stick when its brought in or completely clogged air filters...
Edit: And no I don't get paid more if I get more vehicles in the shop lol, its just my observation.
I agree I see a lot of cars come in and nothing is ever checked by the owner . 2 people today came in to get tires aired up because the tire light came on.
I drive hwy but I am usually in a hurry and going pretty quick I am a spirited driver. My manual says up to 10,000 miles I know it's possible but it does make me leary. I put an engine in a dodge ram 4.7l last week the guy is a regular of ours and changed his oil every 7500 and the engine was not very clean. Not all smudged and caked up but definitely had some sludge tons of varnish very disappointing given the miles. He ran pennzoil in it and a couple of times he ran Motorcraft so I was shocked to see the results.
The dodge 3.9L engine is a known sludger. It's a design defect. Add to that they always seem to ingest coolant because of water jacket location means that most of these engines will sludge up. There is a thread addressing this engine around here somewhere.
And as already said 3000 mile intervals is recommended so you bring the car in. Most oil changes come with "free inspection" which is where they make their money. You cme in for an oil change and walk out with a 2000 dollar estimate for repairs.
Let me start by saying most mechanics aren't like the guys we have here as members. Most are completely clueless about oil in general.
For example I had my C3 in because the front diff was squeaking and of course the "tech" whose name is on all those certificates in the waiting room tells me my oils black and I should change the oil.
I had mos2 in the oil and it didn't yet have 1000 miles on it. So I told him no.
Then we start talking about engine oil. He was arrogant and absolutely clueless.
He was going off about how today's engines need more frequent oil changes and 5000 miles is too long.
I mentioned BITOG and the vast amount of used oil analysis' that would disagree with his belief.
Then I mention the oem and how the oil life monitors function which he then goes into a conspiracy theory and how oil change monitors are just glorified odometers,to which I replied that Chevy,bmw,Chrysler and Ford all have smart type monitors which take into consideration oil temps,fuel burned,run cycles and many other variables into consideration and an algorithm is developed for these systems,to which he tried to change the subject.
He was a younger guy too,and a thicker is better guy as well.
So I told him I'd follow the recommendations of the lab that's doing the uoa over a wrench who is at best guessing. He was an Amsoil guy too. Talking about how his oil always drains out clean at which point I just walked out.
A good wrench is very hard to find and once you've got one you hold onto them tightly.
My usual guy Jim is also clueless about engine oil but he is one heckuva wrench and he is always busy. I usually have to wait a week before he can fit me in,which to be honest sucks but he always does the job right and at reasonable cost.
And formulating engine lubricants requires a science degree and rightly so.
When a few hundred ppm could be the difference between a 400000 mile engine or a flattened cam,precision is absolutely crucial.
Calling a mechanic a tech is laughable too. A technician in my mind is a computer guy,though by definition a technician could be a mechanic I guess.
Formulating lubricants is high science. Knowing how the addition of each element and compound will react with each other,and taking into consideration how an engine operates and the combustion by-products that the lubricant has to neutralize,absorb and carry away etc is some pretty complex stuff.
So it doesn't surprise me at all that many mechanics doesn't know diddly about engine oil. Just because they are good mechanics that doesn't equate to being a good scientist or lubricant engineer.
There are of course exceptions,we have a few(couple)members here who I consider expert mechanics who have absolute understanding in regards to the science involved when it comes to oil.
What I find funny is these so called techs think they are oil experts.
Originally Posted By: jsfalls
I think 3-5k should apply to most drivers actually ... a majority of people don't even open their own hood or check tire pressure between services, I service a few vehicles daily that have no oil on the stick when its brought in or completely clogged air filters...
Edit: And no I don't get paid more if I get more vehicles in the shop lol, its just my observation.
I agree I see a lot of cars come in and nothing is ever checked by the owner . 2 people today came in to get tires aired up because the tire light came on.
I drive hwy but I am usually in a hurry and going pretty quick I am a spirited driver. My manual says up to 10,000 miles I know it's possible but it does make me leary. I put an engine in a dodge ram 4.7l last week the guy is a regular of ours and changed his oil every 7500 and the engine was not very clean. Not all smudged and caked up but definitely had some sludge tons of varnish very disappointing given the miles. He ran pennzoil in it and a couple of times he ran Motorcraft so I was shocked to see the results.
The dodge 3.9L engine is a known sludger. It's a design defect. Add to that they always seem to ingest coolant because of water jacket location means that most of these engines will sludge up. There is a thread addressing this engine around here somewhere.
And as already said 3000 mile intervals is recommended so you bring the car in. Most oil changes come with "free inspection" which is where they make their money. You cme in for an oil change and walk out with a 2000 dollar estimate for repairs.
Let me start by saying most mechanics aren't like the guys we have here as members. Most are completely clueless about oil in general.
For example I had my C3 in because the front diff was squeaking and of course the "tech" whose name is on all those certificates in the waiting room tells me my oils black and I should change the oil.
I had mos2 in the oil and it didn't yet have 1000 miles on it. So I told him no.
Then we start talking about engine oil. He was arrogant and absolutely clueless.
He was going off about how today's engines need more frequent oil changes and 5000 miles is too long.
I mentioned BITOG and the vast amount of used oil analysis' that would disagree with his belief.
Then I mention the oem and how the oil life monitors function which he then goes into a conspiracy theory and how oil change monitors are just glorified odometers,to which I replied that Chevy,bmw,Chrysler and Ford all have smart type monitors which take into consideration oil temps,fuel burned,run cycles and many other variables into consideration and an algorithm is developed for these systems,to which he tried to change the subject.
He was a younger guy too,and a thicker is better guy as well.
So I told him I'd follow the recommendations of the lab that's doing the uoa over a wrench who is at best guessing. He was an Amsoil guy too. Talking about how his oil always drains out clean at which point I just walked out.
A good wrench is very hard to find and once you've got one you hold onto them tightly.
My usual guy Jim is also clueless about engine oil but he is one heckuva wrench and he is always busy. I usually have to wait a week before he can fit me in,which to be honest sucks but he always does the job right and at reasonable cost.
And formulating engine lubricants requires a science degree and rightly so.
When a few hundred ppm could be the difference between a 400000 mile engine or a flattened cam,precision is absolutely crucial.
Calling a mechanic a tech is laughable too. A technician in my mind is a computer guy,though by definition a technician could be a mechanic I guess.
Formulating lubricants is high science. Knowing how the addition of each element and compound will react with each other,and taking into consideration how an engine operates and the combustion by-products that the lubricant has to neutralize,absorb and carry away etc is some pretty complex stuff.
So it doesn't surprise me at all that many mechanics doesn't know diddly about engine oil. Just because they are good mechanics that doesn't equate to being a good scientist or lubricant engineer.
There are of course exceptions,we have a few(couple)members here who I consider expert mechanics who have absolute understanding in regards to the science involved when it comes to oil.
What I find funny is these so called techs think they are oil experts.
The engine ram_man wrote of was a 4.7 V-8, not the 3.9 V-6 you mentioned in your reply.
You're right in that the average tech (and, yeah, that's what they are, just like software install mouse jockeys) has little knowldege of oil.
They are, however, the experts when it comes to the consequences of neglect.
The average tech will recommend more frequent changes than might typically be required simply because they've seen the results of extended drains run on bulk oils at low sump levels. They've also seen that their customers not only avoid topping up the oil, but also ignore things like low coolant, low brake fluid, low tire pressures and low power steering fluid, any one of which could be the result of external leaks or in the case of coolant, coolant ingress into the oil. None of these are serious matters if caught before the engine oil turns into chocolate milk or the brakes fail due to a leak or a tire fails at speed because it's been run low with a nail in it for the past 8K.
The average tech really does care about the work he does and really does try to do right by his customers.
Long oil drains are fine for those with the knowledge and desire to maintain their cars properly. Most owners have neither.
You're right in that the average tech (and, yeah, that's what they are, just like software install mouse jockeys) has little knowldege of oil.
They are, however, the experts when it comes to the consequences of neglect.
The average tech will recommend more frequent changes than might typically be required simply because they've seen the results of extended drains run on bulk oils at low sump levels. They've also seen that their customers not only avoid topping up the oil, but also ignore things like low coolant, low brake fluid, low tire pressures and low power steering fluid, any one of which could be the result of external leaks or in the case of coolant, coolant ingress into the oil. None of these are serious matters if caught before the engine oil turns into chocolate milk or the brakes fail due to a leak or a tire fails at speed because it's been run low with a nail in it for the past 8K.
The average tech really does care about the work he does and really does try to do right by his customers.
Long oil drains are fine for those with the knowledge and desire to maintain their cars properly. Most owners have neither.
well said ^
i tell customers 6 months or 5000 miles which ever comes first. I change most of mine once a year or 7500
One that really amazes me is on the commercial truck side of things. Detroit Diesel OEM recommended drain intervals has been up to 50,000 miles for a while now. Yet, there are still some old dinosaurs out there that swear by the 10,000 mile OCI's many commercial diesel owners did for years. At an average $259 a pop for a shop oil change, it boggles the mind why someone would want to stick with 10,000 mile OCI's. For an average commercial truck, that is 12 oil changes a year at that interval!
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