Mobil 1 5W30 4012Miles 2009 Saturn Outlook XR

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This is my second UOA for my Outlook 3.6DI, this is a 3rd consecutive run of M1 with no towing on this oil or excess idling. This run saw much more highway miles than last UOA with a 1600KM (1000 Mile) round trip to Mont Sainte Anne, Quebec. Fuel may have been a tad higher because of short trips just prior to taking in for oil change (no time for a warmup highway run). Your comments or thoughts would be appreciated. Link to thread for my first UOA is here. EDIT: Before anyone skewers me hide for "dumping quality synth at low OCI interval"... My app is a DI with a mix of short driving, Canadian winters and some camping season towing. I'll stretch out the OCI with whatever oil that clears those hurdles backed by UOA. I gave M1 a try and seems okay for spring/summer driving but it doesn't look so promising for my app in Winter. I'm giving Edge a try in the mill (will do 2 runs with UOA & TBN). Regards, /BTV
Code:
Sample Date	May 17/10	Mar 03/10	Dec 04/09	Aug 31/09
Lab Name	FLUID LIFE	FLUID LIFE	n/a		n/a
Oil		M1 5W-30	M1 5W-30	M1 5W-30	Saturn Bulk 5W-30
Filter		ACD PF48	ACD PF48	ACD PF48	ACD PF48
Total Miles	16,412 miles 	12,400 miles 	8404 miles 	3879 miles
Miles on oil	4012 miles 	3996 miles	4525 miles	3879 miles
OLM		71%		57%		n/a		n/a
Make up oil	0	 	0 		0 		0
								
Aluminum.......	4	 	8				
Chrome.........	2	 	3				
Iron...........	63	 	101				
Copper.........	9		14				
Lead...........	1		1				
Tin............	0		0				
Molybdenum.....	118		103				
Nickel.........	0	 	0				
Manganese......	n/a		n/a				
Silver.........	0	 	0				
Titanium.......	0		0				
Potassium......	1	 	3		 		
Boron..........	57	 	51				
Silicon........	8	 	16				
Sodium.........	5		16		 		
Calcium........	2502		2330				
Magnesium......	12	 	14				
Phosphorus.....	706	 	693				
Zinc...........	850	 	832				
Barium.........	0 		0				
Vanadium.......	0		0				
Antimony.......	0		0				
Lithium........	1		1				
Berylium.......	0		0				
								
Flashpoint F...	n/a		n/a				
Fuel %.........	(3.18)	 	(2.80)				
Antifreeze.....	Neg	 	Neg		 		
Water..........	Neg	 	Neg				
Insoluables....	n/a	 	n/a				
cSt [email protected] 52.4	 	(50.1)				
cSt [email protected] 9.40	 	(8.91)				
TBN............	7.04		5.85				
 
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Tbn and viscosity are surprisingly good. That is a lot of fuel and Fe is really high. I would love to see a ferrographic analysis on something like this. Another example of a DI engine & high fuel. Btw, I think M1 has more moly now.
 

BigTallV

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Originally Posted By: rudolphna
Wow that's a lot of fuel... And it just sheds tons of iron and lead. Maybe you should consider switching to something a bit heavier duty.
I've been taking close interest in GC and HDEO. I am concerned about warranty and thus far am sticking to GM approved oils (leaning on the 'vette spec side so far). I have EDGE in the mill right now and will run it for the summer with some towing of a ~2500lb pop-up trailer. The iron was a concern for sure. My read of the board thus far is that M1 has a tendency to show higher iron in UOA, but I have a DI and that won't help matters much there (fuel wash on the cylinder). I am just trying to find the oil that works well in a GM 3.6DI in my mix of driving conditions. Edge is showing some promise in recent UOA's despite it being a 'thin' 30 weight. A recent posted UOA of Edge in an Audi 1.8 Turbo showed *very* well (thanks to that BITOG member for doing so).
 

BigTallV

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Originally Posted By: wirelessF
How long did you run the oil?
The sample dates are the oil change dates. So 2.5 months.
 
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If you plan on running 5K< drains, I'd try PYB that is GF-5, Chevron/Havoline or MC. For synthetics, maybe try PU/Amsoil. It's quite possible all of these oils will handle wear/fuel better.
 

BigTallV

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Originally Posted By: buster
...I would love to see a ferrographic analysis on something like this. Another example of a DI engine & high fuel. Btw, I think M1 has more moly now.
http://www.fluidlife.com/serv_ferrography.html My lab has the service available. I'm not sure of the cost however, being the Victoria Day long weekend - it will be at least until Tuesday before I could even find out.
 

BigTallV

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Originally Posted By: buster
If you plan on running 5K< drains, I'd try PYB that is GF-5, Chevron/Havoline or MC. For synthetics, maybe try PU/Amsoil. It's quite possible all of these oils will handle wear/fuel better.
Unfortunately PU is not available in Canada (yet). I have some PP in my stash and a box of FS too. PP has been posting some respectable UOA's. PU would be a good choice if I were looking for extended drains. But I am currently of the opinion that in this DI, a 10 to 15K mile run is *NOT* in the cards. I'm thinking a ~7.5K mile run is about all any oil on the market is going to give me. I do have a summer camping trip planned for Lake Placid and for sure I'll have a little bit of room to grab some PU and give it a swirl. Hope is that more Lambda DI owners will be posting their data.
 
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Originally Posted By: rudolphna
And it just sheds tons of iron and lead.
Am I missing something as there is negligible lead showing in either UOA. There are good things to be seen from this analysis i.e. fe fell significantly, copper is now in the single digits and both AL and Si are down. But these gains can't be attributed to the M1 but rather due to the engine completing its break in and the favourable change in driving conditions i.e. warmer weather, less idling?...just compare the OLM readings. But with all that fuel why is the TBN so high? Doesnt excessive fuel play havoc with TBN? shrug
 
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Originally Posted By: Brett Miller
You would be better off with Pennzoil Yellow Bottle.
How do you know? Or are you just saying for less money (for PYB) that you will maybe get the same protection? Anyways in the next couple of weeks there should be a UOA posted for the same engine using a conventional oil.
 
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As bad as the iron wear numbers seem they are not bad enough to preclude a long engine life. I don't think any dino or GP III based syn of similar viscosity is going to do any better in dealing with the cylinder "washing" that you're getting with your DI engine. Ester based syn's like RL and RLI are reputed to deal with the issue better but they are not warranty approved.
 
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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I don't think any dino or GP III based syn of similar viscosity is going to do any better in dealing with the cylinder "washing" that you're getting with your DI engine.
Except Castrol EDGE 5W30 did exceptionally well with this Audi A4 turbo (is the engine direct injection?). http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1897767#Post1897767 In any event this engine is very hard on oil and Group III EDGE was up to the task.
 

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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I don't think any dino or GP III based syn of similar viscosity is going to do any better in dealing with the cylinder "washing" that you're getting with your DI engine.
I don't man, this flavor of M1 has built up a stout reputation for making some ugly UOAs in terms of iron levels and percent viscosity loss. It would be hard to find any other synthetic oil to produce an uglier-looking UOA.
 

BigTallV

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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
As bad as the iron wear numbers seem they are not bad enough to preclude a long engine life. I don't think any dino or GP III based syn of similar viscosity is going to do any better in dealing with the cylinder "washing" that you're getting with your DI engine. Ester based syn's like RL and RLI are reputed to deal with the issue better but they are not warranty approved.
I pretty much would agree with you. But warranty obviously is of concern as the vehicle is less than 1 year old, so a GM6094M (or better) approved 5W-30 (or 0W-30) oil with API starburst is what I have to work with. Edge doesn't seem to have the higher iron readings that M1 does, that may help in a DI. I still hold M1 to be a good oil, but it doesn't seem to be a good match for my DI. GC, RedLine and even HDEO seems appealing to me as potential candidates for solving or better resisting the fuel dilution. But my first route is that I'm trying to work within the warranty and approved oil guidelines without having to get 'creative' with receipts. Thanks for the suggestion on RLI and ester based syns. I'll read into that some more.
 
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Originally Posted By: daman
Not bad for a little oil with your fuel!
Wouldnt have one expected even much lower viscosity #s given the seemingly high amount of fuel detected?
 
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Why not try M1 AFE - its a full syn rather than semi - and it should have some ester or sim FM in the mix. Anyway, the engine is still breaking in - numbers will continue to get better if it doesnt "explode" :)
 
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Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I don't think any dino or GP III based syn of similar viscosity is going to do any better in dealing with the cylinder "washing" that you're getting with your DI engine.
Except Castrol EDGE 5W30 did exceptionally well with this Audi A4 turbo (is the engine direct injection?).
The 1.8T isn't a DI engine. The newer 2.0T is.
 
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