Based on SAE 980702 report, HT/HS is more important than viscosity regarding engine bearing wear. So you are on the right track per this report.
Mobil 1 0w-40 HT/HS
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Where can I see that report?
PS: Back in the box, Pandora!
PS: Back in the box, Pandora!
Yes, there is a knee curve around 2.6 (isn't that interesting -most 20w oils are here), but the wear numbers do go down but at a slower rate. To me the curve would appear to start to taper off around 3+. So their does seem to be some justification for higher HTHS for min wear #s.
The SAE report is copyrighted, but is available on the SAE website. Otherwise, I would post it.
[ July 30, 2003, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: Fillherup ]
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I see, membership required.
[ July 30, 2003, 01:57 AM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
[ July 30, 2003, 01:57 AM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
Let me help.
1. HT/HS
Mobil 1 0W-40 HT/HS = 3.60 is quite normal for all recent oil compositions irrespective of manufacturers and exceeds ACEA A3/B3 and MB229.1-229.5, VW 502.000/505.000 and BMW Long Life requirements (min 3.50).
Figure is not big since it have to be "Energy Conserving", from one side, and to provide required wear protection at high temperature and high shear. Less HT/HS - better fuel saving.
For many, but not all engines (it depends on engine design) 3,60 is far better then 3,20 offered by Mobil 1 10W-30 and will ensure better protection. Majority of 5W-40 synthetic and 10W-40 semi-synthetic oils have HT/HS between 3,50 and 4.10 cP.
Making approval for use of this or that oil in their cars manufactures expect that this oil will keep HT/HS > 3.50 during all prescribed oil interval. Even in Europe where this parameter is more critical then in North America due to higher speeds, it does not cause a concern.
2.Spread and shear
High spread oil can be more shear stable then low spread one and this depends on their base stock quality. Therefore, no one can make a jugment about shear stability and compare oils if he does not have these data from oil manufacturers. But the latters do not hurry to discover this value to end-users.
The value can be given either as Shear Stability, i.e. viscosity at 100 deg. C after shear or
Shear Stability Index, i.e. % viscosity loss.
Now tests are made mainly according to CEC L-14-A-93 (Bosch injector, t=100 deg.C, 30 cycles).
SSI
Best synthetic oils: 1-2 % loss
Good synthetic oils: 3-5 %
Good semi-synthetic: 9-10 %
Deducts this value from kinematic viscosity at 100 C, and you get an idea about oil shear during its use. Only an idea, since the real process is more complicated: polymer is shearing, but base stock is thickening. It does not valid if you race.
Below are SSI of some oils (may be different now):
Mobil 1 0W-40: 1.0 % API SJ ACEA A3/B3
Mobil 1 5W-30: 3.0 % API SJ
Mobil 1 5W-50: 3.0 % API SJ
Mobil 1 15W-50: 4.0 % API SJ
Motul 8100 0W-40: 1,5 % API SL ACEA A3/B3
Motul 6100 5W-40: 1.8 % API SL ACEA A3/B3
(Quite doubtful 1.8% for 5W-40 given 6100 base stock )
Motul 300V 15W-50: 4.3 % API SH
Shell Ultra 0W-40: 3.0 % API SJ ACEA A3/B3
Shell Ultra 5W-40: 5.0 % API SJ ACEA A3/B3
This is glassware test, real shear may be higher.
3. Instead of conclusion
Difficult to say why you see 0W-40 "repeatedly thin down by 2cSt on average". This is about 14 % loss. I would consider 3 options:
a) incorrect measuring
b) oil dilution
c) Mobil cost reduction on "European formula"
(But what you could expect from bear market ? API grade comes higher, but synthetic base stocks are continuously worsening.)
Believe majority of North American oils also have SSI of 3-12 %. So, narrow spread oils also shear and therefore lose kinematic and HT/HS viscosity.
Given your xW-30 oils usually have HT/HS of 2,90-3,40 (ILSAC GF-2/3 and ACEA A1/B1)and kinematic viscosity 9,5-12 cS@100 C, they cannot be used in many European cars like Audi-VW, BMW, MB, Porsch launched before 1998-2000 which require ACEA A3/B3 and own certification. If the oil is not certified by OEM, it asks to use a heavy grade for the same temperature.
This would also cause a concern for some Honda and Nissan engines.
Regards,
1. HT/HS
Mobil 1 0W-40 HT/HS = 3.60 is quite normal for all recent oil compositions irrespective of manufacturers and exceeds ACEA A3/B3 and MB229.1-229.5, VW 502.000/505.000 and BMW Long Life requirements (min 3.50).
Figure is not big since it have to be "Energy Conserving", from one side, and to provide required wear protection at high temperature and high shear. Less HT/HS - better fuel saving.
For many, but not all engines (it depends on engine design) 3,60 is far better then 3,20 offered by Mobil 1 10W-30 and will ensure better protection. Majority of 5W-40 synthetic and 10W-40 semi-synthetic oils have HT/HS between 3,50 and 4.10 cP.
Making approval for use of this or that oil in their cars manufactures expect that this oil will keep HT/HS > 3.50 during all prescribed oil interval. Even in Europe where this parameter is more critical then in North America due to higher speeds, it does not cause a concern.
2.Spread and shear
High spread oil can be more shear stable then low spread one and this depends on their base stock quality. Therefore, no one can make a jugment about shear stability and compare oils if he does not have these data from oil manufacturers. But the latters do not hurry to discover this value to end-users.
The value can be given either as Shear Stability, i.e. viscosity at 100 deg. C after shear or
Shear Stability Index, i.e. % viscosity loss.
Now tests are made mainly according to CEC L-14-A-93 (Bosch injector, t=100 deg.C, 30 cycles).
SSI
Best synthetic oils: 1-2 % loss
Good synthetic oils: 3-5 %
Good semi-synthetic: 9-10 %
Deducts this value from kinematic viscosity at 100 C, and you get an idea about oil shear during its use. Only an idea, since the real process is more complicated: polymer is shearing, but base stock is thickening. It does not valid if you race.
Below are SSI of some oils (may be different now):
Mobil 1 0W-40: 1.0 % API SJ ACEA A3/B3
Mobil 1 5W-30: 3.0 % API SJ
Mobil 1 5W-50: 3.0 % API SJ
Mobil 1 15W-50: 4.0 % API SJ
Motul 8100 0W-40: 1,5 % API SL ACEA A3/B3
Motul 6100 5W-40: 1.8 % API SL ACEA A3/B3
(Quite doubtful 1.8% for 5W-40 given 6100 base stock )
Motul 300V 15W-50: 4.3 % API SH
Shell Ultra 0W-40: 3.0 % API SJ ACEA A3/B3
Shell Ultra 5W-40: 5.0 % API SJ ACEA A3/B3
This is glassware test, real shear may be higher.
3. Instead of conclusion
Difficult to say why you see 0W-40 "repeatedly thin down by 2cSt on average". This is about 14 % loss. I would consider 3 options:
a) incorrect measuring
b) oil dilution
c) Mobil cost reduction on "European formula"
(But what you could expect from bear market ? API grade comes higher, but synthetic base stocks are continuously worsening.)
Believe majority of North American oils also have SSI of 3-12 %. So, narrow spread oils also shear and therefore lose kinematic and HT/HS viscosity.
Given your xW-30 oils usually have HT/HS of 2,90-3,40 (ILSAC GF-2/3 and ACEA A1/B1)and kinematic viscosity 9,5-12 cS@100 C, they cannot be used in many European cars like Audi-VW, BMW, MB, Porsch launched before 1998-2000 which require ACEA A3/B3 and own certification. If the oil is not certified by OEM, it asks to use a heavy grade for the same temperature.
This would also cause a concern for some Honda and Nissan engines.
Regards,
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If M1 0W-40, which has HTHS 3.6 shears down 1% to HTHS 3.564, and if M1 15W-50, which has HTHS 5.11 shears down 4% to HTHS 4.9, is it correct to say that the M1 0W-40 is more shearstable than the M1 15W-50?
Moribundman,
The most shear stable xw-40 I've seen is the Redline 10w-40, followed by Delvac 1, 5w-40. The Mobil 1, 0w-40 really doesn't do that well in this regard. It may be in grade at the end of an ACEA A3/B3 test, but it probably shears down to a 30wt first and then thickens back up. The SAE paper that Mobil published several years back on Mobil 1 clearly shows this type of viscometric behavior from the 0w-40. At the end of a standard 64 hour Sequence IIIE test, it was about 20% thinner as I recall.
The Bosch injector test doesn't really analog the type of permanent shear loss that occurs in actual service, although it is more useful than the tapered bearing simulator used in the HT/HS test in this regard.
Tooslick
The most shear stable xw-40 I've seen is the Redline 10w-40, followed by Delvac 1, 5w-40. The Mobil 1, 0w-40 really doesn't do that well in this regard. It may be in grade at the end of an ACEA A3/B3 test, but it probably shears down to a 30wt first and then thickens back up. The SAE paper that Mobil published several years back on Mobil 1 clearly shows this type of viscometric behavior from the 0w-40. At the end of a standard 64 hour Sequence IIIE test, it was about 20% thinner as I recall.
The Bosch injector test doesn't really analog the type of permanent shear loss that occurs in actual service, although it is more useful than the tapered bearing simulator used in the HT/HS test in this regard.
Tooslick
Yes, Moribundman, less % loss - better shear stability. I cited these data to show narrow spread is not always better.
Bosch injector test is more rigid then ASTM D5119 with 10 h test on CRL L-18 engine, but both are used 1. for "stay in grade" qualification, 2. as reference point for oil comparison within the same method.
Tests define % loss of kinematic viscosity at 100 deg C, but not loss of HT/HS viscosity measured at 150 C. HT/HS will decrease too, but there is no yet a method to mesure it, so % loss may be higher or lower and will depend on base stock quality and type/amount of viscosity modifies. New generation of polymers performs considerably better then those used 5-7 years ago and even show some lubricity properties.
To be noticed, shear stability in lab test and real life may differ a lot since engine can cause higher shear during longer time.
Cannot comment on Redline 10W-40 since never used it. Theorethically, given on its base stock and weight, it should perform better during long high speed (160-200 km/h)journeys and in traffic jams in hot weather. But again, in what engine and whether we can make a comparative test. Some of the oils used in Prelude 2.2 VTEC were Motul 8100 0W-40 and 300V 10W-40, and though personally I trust more to any 10W-40 synthetic oil, subjectively 0W-40 worked better, except slightly higher oil consumption (150-200 ml against 100 ml for 5.000 km).
Bosch injector test is more rigid then ASTM D5119 with 10 h test on CRL L-18 engine, but both are used 1. for "stay in grade" qualification, 2. as reference point for oil comparison within the same method.
Tests define % loss of kinematic viscosity at 100 deg C, but not loss of HT/HS viscosity measured at 150 C. HT/HS will decrease too, but there is no yet a method to mesure it, so % loss may be higher or lower and will depend on base stock quality and type/amount of viscosity modifies. New generation of polymers performs considerably better then those used 5-7 years ago and even show some lubricity properties.
To be noticed, shear stability in lab test and real life may differ a lot since engine can cause higher shear during longer time.
Cannot comment on Redline 10W-40 since never used it. Theorethically, given on its base stock and weight, it should perform better during long high speed (160-200 km/h)journeys and in traffic jams in hot weather. But again, in what engine and whether we can make a comparative test. Some of the oils used in Prelude 2.2 VTEC were Motul 8100 0W-40 and 300V 10W-40, and though personally I trust more to any 10W-40 synthetic oil, subjectively 0W-40 worked better, except slightly higher oil consumption (150-200 ml against 100 ml for 5.000 km).
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Primus (and everyone else),
I'm getting at the following:
Let's say I have an engine, which needs an oil with an HTHS of 3.5.
1. I use an oil that has an HTHS that's marginally better than the minimum required, and I hope it will remain within the required specs over its life.
2. I use an oil that has an HTHS that is considerably higher than the required minimum, and I don't care that this oil might, absolutely speaking, thin out (shear, or whatever the correct term is) more than the other oil, because it will still have a higher HTHS.
To use M1 0W-40 and M1 15W-50 as an example:
- M1 0W-40 starts out with HTHS 3.6. This oil has an SSI of 1%.
- M1 15W-50 starts out with HTHS 5.11. This oil has an SSI of 4%.
Even though 15W-40 will shear more than M1 0W-40, the 15W-50 should still have a higher HTHS at the end of its useful life. That's why I wouldn't be overly concerned with "shear stability" per se, but more with how much "reserves" an oil offers in terms of protection. Am I mistaken?
[ August 01, 2003, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
I'm getting at the following:
Let's say I have an engine, which needs an oil with an HTHS of 3.5.
1. I use an oil that has an HTHS that's marginally better than the minimum required, and I hope it will remain within the required specs over its life.
2. I use an oil that has an HTHS that is considerably higher than the required minimum, and I don't care that this oil might, absolutely speaking, thin out (shear, or whatever the correct term is) more than the other oil, because it will still have a higher HTHS.
To use M1 0W-40 and M1 15W-50 as an example:
- M1 0W-40 starts out with HTHS 3.6. This oil has an SSI of 1%.
- M1 15W-50 starts out with HTHS 5.11. This oil has an SSI of 4%.
Even though 15W-40 will shear more than M1 0W-40, the 15W-50 should still have a higher HTHS at the end of its useful life. That's why I wouldn't be overly concerned with "shear stability" per se, but more with how much "reserves" an oil offers in terms of protection. Am I mistaken?
[ August 01, 2003, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
Primus, thanks for all the information. What is the cost in US dollars for a liter of synthetic oil in Belarus?
Moribundman,
I would prefer Mobil 1 15W-50 in many European cars with over 50 M miles , especially in your climate. You don't live in Canada or Alaska. 15W-50 synthetic should be more reliable in many cases. But many cars would be fully satisfied with good 5W-40 synthetic all the year round.
Sin City,
Mobil, Castrol, Total, Elf, Shell, Motul, Aral, BP, Fuchs offer their synthetic oils at similar prices and it depends more where you buy:
0W-30, 0W-40 $ 9.5-11.0/l
5W-30, 5W-40 $ 6.5- 8.0
5W-50, 10W-50 $ 8.0-10.0
10W-60 $ 9,5-11.0
Before Euro growth prices were on lower end.
Amazing, but american Mobil, Castrol, Chevron, Pennzoil, Quaker-State, Unocal 76 are sold at $ 9,0-10,5/Q (retail prices).
Import prices to oil distributors are 2-2,5 times less. By the way, Motul 300V costs less in USA then everywere in Europe.
I would prefer Mobil 1 15W-50 in many European cars with over 50 M miles , especially in your climate. You don't live in Canada or Alaska. 15W-50 synthetic should be more reliable in many cases. But many cars would be fully satisfied with good 5W-40 synthetic all the year round.
Sin City,
Mobil, Castrol, Total, Elf, Shell, Motul, Aral, BP, Fuchs offer their synthetic oils at similar prices and it depends more where you buy:
0W-30, 0W-40 $ 9.5-11.0/l
5W-30, 5W-40 $ 6.5- 8.0
5W-50, 10W-50 $ 8.0-10.0
10W-60 $ 9,5-11.0
Before Euro growth prices were on lower end.
Amazing, but american Mobil, Castrol, Chevron, Pennzoil, Quaker-State, Unocal 76 are sold at $ 9,0-10,5/Q (retail prices).
Import prices to oil distributors are 2-2,5 times less. By the way, Motul 300V costs less in USA then everywere in Europe.
Primus,
You have a regular smorgasbord of oils to choose from, albeit at premium prices. What percentage of the total cost of a litre of oil is taxes? Also, I got a quote on Motul 8100 E-Tech at $10/Litre...even for a "connoissoeur" that's too pricey!!! (So I guess I have to drop the "connoisseur" from my credentials, huh?)
You have a regular smorgasbord of oils to choose from, albeit at premium prices. What percentage of the total cost of a litre of oil is taxes? Also, I got a quote on Motul 8100 E-Tech at $10/Litre...even for a "connoissoeur" that's too pricey!!! (So I guess I have to drop the "connoisseur" from my credentials, huh?)
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Primus,
I'd love to get an over-the-counter full synthetic 5W-40, but the M1 15W-50 is widely available. For some reason, many people here seem not to like that particular oil. I'm not yet sure if I'll go with Lubro Moly or Pentosynth 5W-40 or M1 15W-50. Probably I'll go with the M1 out of convenience.
I'd love to get an over-the-counter full synthetic 5W-40, but the M1 15W-50 is widely available. For some reason, many people here seem not to like that particular oil. I'm not yet sure if I'll go with Lubro Moly or Pentosynth 5W-40 or M1 15W-50. Probably I'll go with the M1 out of convenience.
Pscholte,
Motul price policy is quite strange: with all transport cost you can buy 8100 E-Tech 0W-40 cheaper then I. This April I purchased it at $11,5 for 1 liter cans - 5% rebate as regular customer. 4 or 5 l cans would cost me $11/l - 5%.
Think actually Motul is overpriced: we pay a legend that can be a science fiction now.
At the same time given Euro strengthening we may see at least 10-15 % price increase with coming supplies.
Necessary to notice that oil companies in W.Europe sell mainly through car services where the price may be e 14-18/l against e 10-12 in specialized auto shop. And it looks they are hardly concerned what oil brand the service puts in their cars. No competition - not necessary to fight for customers. Here, in Belarus, Russia, Ukraine, people prefer to chose oil themselves, so we go to shops where there are 5-20 import and 3-5 local brands. Real Klondike River, from one side, and torturous choice, from other side.
(feel difficulties to type, something wrong)
Moribundman,
Would be glad to give some ideas, if they can help, but need some info about your car and drive style. It could sound factional for somebody, but have you thought about Mobil1 15W-50 and xW-30 mixture ? This product range should have similar additive chemistry and mixture may work well. In the past I did it with 76 Nascar Synthetic Oils 10W-30 and 20W-50, but we do not have some labs for oil analisys. Subjectively it worked well. Could be that additive balance was slightly spoiled, but for 5-7.000 km oil intervale the mixture did its job. Everytime you change oil brand, you may have 5-12 % of old oil and, what is worth, alien base and additives.
Have a nice week-end
Motul price policy is quite strange: with all transport cost you can buy 8100 E-Tech 0W-40 cheaper then I. This April I purchased it at $11,5 for 1 liter cans - 5% rebate as regular customer. 4 or 5 l cans would cost me $11/l - 5%.
Think actually Motul is overpriced: we pay a legend that can be a science fiction now.
At the same time given Euro strengthening we may see at least 10-15 % price increase with coming supplies.
Necessary to notice that oil companies in W.Europe sell mainly through car services where the price may be e 14-18/l against e 10-12 in specialized auto shop. And it looks they are hardly concerned what oil brand the service puts in their cars. No competition - not necessary to fight for customers. Here, in Belarus, Russia, Ukraine, people prefer to chose oil themselves, so we go to shops where there are 5-20 import and 3-5 local brands. Real Klondike River, from one side, and torturous choice, from other side.
(feel difficulties to type, something wrong)
Moribundman,
Would be glad to give some ideas, if they can help, but need some info about your car and drive style. It could sound factional for somebody, but have you thought about Mobil1 15W-50 and xW-30 mixture ? This product range should have similar additive chemistry and mixture may work well. In the past I did it with 76 Nascar Synthetic Oils 10W-30 and 20W-50, but we do not have some labs for oil analisys. Subjectively it worked well. Could be that additive balance was slightly spoiled, but for 5-7.000 km oil intervale the mixture did its job. Everytime you change oil brand, you may have 5-12 % of old oil and, what is worth, alien base and additives.
Have a nice week-end
I have tried 300V 10W-40 too and i realised this oil is havier!! than 20W-50 that some friend is using in his car.
My engine was struggling to maintain a proper idling speed(noticeable horsepower loss too).
I have used mobil and BP 15W50 in the same engine in the past-everything working ok.
Did you have the same problems?
I wonder if this applies to redline 10W40, both of them are 100% ester oils.
However i had noticed the engine temperature wasn't going up with 300V no matter how hard i drove something that wasn't happening with the 15W50 oils...
Youreally have to run an oil in it's intended application and then test it. You can not go by white papers alone. The lab numbers do not really ballance well with real life use. THey do make a good refference point to start from but that is about it.
Engines are much more dynamic in their destruction of an oil! Their are multiple forces working against the oil in real life application. Lab tests are buy design very fixed. If this was my engine and I really wanted to see what worked best I would buy 10W30, 5W40, 10W40, 15W50/20W50 from multiple suppliers and just keep testing.
I think it is more important to have an oil that maintains it's HTHS number then to have a high starting number and a then have it shear down quickly!!
In real world testing I have found M1 15W50 to be much better then it's white papers would lead you to belive.
Engines are much more dynamic in their destruction of an oil! Their are multiple forces working against the oil in real life application. Lab tests are buy design very fixed. If this was my engine and I really wanted to see what worked best I would buy 10W30, 5W40, 10W40, 15W50/20W50 from multiple suppliers and just keep testing.
I think it is more important to have an oil that maintains it's HTHS number then to have a high starting number and a then have it shear down quickly!!
In real world testing I have found M1 15W50 to be much better then it's white papers would lead you to belive.
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primus,
I drive a '96 A4 with the 2.812v AFC motor.
I drive the car fairly hard (I shift a lot and redline the engine quite a bit). In my climate, temperatures are usually between 10 and 45˚C.
The car has 126k miles on it. The first 80k miles (not includig factory fill) I used Castrol Syntec 5W-50, then M1 0W-40. I have been changing the oil and filter every 10k miles. The engine is internally clean and burns no unusual amount of oil (0.5-3/4 quart between oil changes).
I've been considering M1 15W-50 or one of the German 5W-40 oils. Any input is appreciated.
John,
I think I'd rather use an oil that shears more, but still has a higher HT/HS after shearing than the oil I'm comparing it to.
Can you please specify what makes M1 15W-50 so unattractive on paper?
[ August 02, 2003, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
Nothing to say against, JohnBrowning, you are right. But I doubt the lab will test HT/HS. We all love our cars, but do we participate in WRC ? For one engine it will be enough 3.20, another will need min. 4.0. I look at this parameter for 2 purposes: 1) to be sure it's enough for supposed application, 2) to roughly compare base stock quality of 2 oils using their HT/HS and Specific Gravity. Higher HT/HS with lower SG at the same oil weight and type often indicate for better oil base. Over this, if we divide HT/HS by SG we shall see k.viscosity at 150 C. Nothing more. HT/HS is very important, but not a single one to be checked for oil quality evaluation: additive package, lubricity, load-carrying capacity, corrosivity. I already start to think there is no a perfect oil for all applications and it's very often some exceptional properties compromise another ones. Pure PAO base oil may not to give an advantage over a good HC oil for a quiet driver and wear will depend more on oil change interval.
Sorry, but could somebody clarify why shear is so big issue for car enthusiasts in USA and Canada ? Do we drive different cars or use different oils ?
Sorry, but could somebody clarify why shear is so big issue for car enthusiasts in USA and Canada ? Do we drive different cars or use different oils ?
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