Mobil 1 0w-40 HT/HS

[buster]

Guys, help me out with this. If Mobil 1 0w-40 has a HT/HS of 3.6, doesn't that mean this oil is fairly shear stable? Higher the better so why do we see this oil repeatedly thin down by about 2cSt's on average? If you were to consider this in a Vette, I wouldn't like the fact its shearing down and leaving stuff behind. Agree? [ July 26, 2003, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[JohnBrowning]

buster I would imagine that they have to use VI's to get their 40 point spread. I am also going guess that the shearing we see is the VI's being sheared not the base oil. I think we will see this with all of the zero weight goils!! I really think that right now a the best we can manage is 5WXX if we really want to make shear less of an issue. Delvac 1 and Redline 5W oils seem to be pushing the limit with shear resistance. This is just opion based on observation not at all offered as scientific fact!!!

 

[jjbula]

Buster, Mobil 1 10w30 is more shear stable and has a HT/HS of 3.2. HT/HS is not a measure of whether or not it will shear down over time. [ July 26, 2003, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: jjbula ]

 

[Patman]

One thing to also remember, as the oil thins out, it's HTHS gets even lower. So if 0w40 has an HTHS of 3.6 when new, at 14.4cst, just imagine what it'll be once it has thinned out to 12cst. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this is another reason I'm impressed with German Castrol 0w30, it's got an HTHS of 3.6, at an approximate viscosity of 12cst, and we've seen so far it holds it's viscosity very well too. So in theory it should protect better than M1 0w40 would.

 

[moribundman]

Interesting thread. This confirms my suspcion that I shouldn't be using that weak sauce 0W-40 in my Audi. An oil with an HT/HS of 3.5 minimum is required (VW500.00) Maybe I should just do what many Audi owners have said and go with M1 15W-50, disregarding all naysayers. M1 15W-50 has an HT/HS of 5.11, I believe. That should offer plenty protection...

 

[TooSlick]

Moribundman, If you want an extremely robust oil for hot weather use, try the Amsoil Series 2000, 20w-50 in your car. This formulation generates extremely low wear rates in my 1990 Audi 100 and oil consumption is basically nil. Oil analysis after 12,000 miles showed plenty of life left in the oil, with a TBN of 8.1 in my most recent test. This stuff is also very shear stable. I have a number of local customers who run this oil in older 3 and 5 series BMW's with equally good results. TS

 

[pscholte]

Patman, I, like you, am enamored with the Grünes Elixier from Castrol; however, I cannot believe that companies like Porsche, Mercedes AMG and Aston Martin who build cars knowing MANY of them will not live docile lives would specify an oil that shears to the point of being detrimental to the engine (either in protection or long-term cleanliness). There must be something we're missing if the UOAs don't support that level of confidence. [ July 26, 2003, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: pscholte ]

 

[TooSlick]

Buster, For comparison, the Amsoil 0w-30 has a viscosity of 11.3 Cst @ 100C and a HT/HS of 3.5 Cp. If you start looking at 0w-40 and 5w-50 grades, you'll find their HT/HS numbers are fairly low, compared to their viscosities @ 100C. This is a direct result of the # of polymeric thickener that is required to make these grades. Under high shear rate conditions, these polymer molecules align themselves in the direction of flow, so the oil thins out. If you visualize taking a rubber band and running it between some metal rollers, you can appreciate this effect. The band compresses as it passes through the small opening and then bounces back to it's original cross section on the other side. Lubricants loaded with polymers behave in much the same way. The HT/HS test doesn't do a good job of simulating the damage and permanent shear loss you see with multigrade oils in actual service. However by comparing the relative viscosities @ 100C and the HT/HS viscosity @ 150C, you can get an idea of how much thickener is in the formulation. TooSlick dixie synthetics

 

[buster]

Thanks for the great responses. I seems m1 10w-30 is really the oil Mobil makes (other then D1 and 15w-50 which I don't use) that I really like. For one, the points you all made make it clear that M1 0w-40 is not the way to go do to it's shearing. Amsoil's S2000, while not always showing consistant numbers, at least doesn't thin out. If anything, it thickens up a bit. I think the whole 0w-40 thing is just a bad idea. 0w-30 is enough. I'll be staying away from 0w-40 thats for sure. I went back and looked at the UOA's and was surprised at how many this oil thinned out in. Not too good IMO. [ July 26, 2003, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[boxcartommie22]

i use delvac 1 5w 40 (4qts) and 1.5 qts of redlines 5w 40....delvac has a hths of 4.1 and redline 4.8

 

[buster]

Thats a nice combo! D1 is an awesome oil. Regarding Amsoil's 20w-50, is this oil really the number one choice among the racing community? [ July 26, 2003, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Dr. T]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that M-1 0-40 had the 229.5 approval, whereas the Syntec 0-30 was only 229.1/3.

 

[Patman]

No matter how you slice it, a 3.6 HTHS for a 40wt synthetic oil is pretty sad. Pennzoil's conventional 10w40 has a better HTHS! Amsoil's 10w40 is much better too, 3.93. It's too bad they don't make a 5w40 or 0w40 though (or did someone say they recently have come out with a 0w40?) Redline's 5w40 has an HTHS of 4.6, and their 10w40 is 4.7, but the problem is that they use a different testing method (D4741) so it's not directly comparable to the other oils which use the D4683 method.

 

[pscholte]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr. T: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that M-1 0-40 had the 229.5 approval, whereas the Syntec 0-30 was only 229.1/3.

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Dr T, According to the data available on the internet, M1 0W-40 is indeed 229.5, Castrol Formula SLX 0W-30 229.3.

 

[buster]

quote:

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No matter how you slice it, a 3.6 HTHS for a 40wt synthetic oil is pretty sad

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Yes and no. It is a 40pt spread so I can see why it's not as high. Delvac 1 is there 5w-40 and it has a HT/HS of 4.1. It's hard to compare these to a 0w-40. I just don't like the idea of a 0w-40. It has to be a decent oil though if it's factory fill in all Porches etc. If I had a car that called for a 40wt oil, it would not be this one, that is for sure! I'd use Amsoil 10w-40. As TS stated:

quote:

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Any wide range multrgrade is prone to some shearing. All things being equal, the most stable grades are going to be 5w-20/10w-30/15w-40/20w-50. The further you get away from this, to say a 0w-40 or 5w-50, the less stable the oil is going to be.

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Also, take a look at Amsoil's 0w-40. It's not intended for cars, but can be used in it. They don't even post the HT/HS numbers. Hmmm. It's also fairly volatile at 11.93% NOAK. Another thing, if most engine wear occurs at start up, then maybe it is beneficial to have a 0w-40 oil. [ July 27, 2003, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[geo]

quote:

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Originally posted by Patman: No matter how you slice it, a 3.6 HTHS for a 40wt synthetic oil is pretty sad. Pennzoil's conventional 10w40 has a better HTHS! Amsoil's 10w40 is much better too, 3.93. It's too bad they don't make a 5w40 or 0w40 though (or did someone say they recently have come out with a 0w40?) Redline's 5w40 has an HTHS of 4.6, and their 10w40 is 4.7, but the problem is that they use a different testing method (D4741) so it's not directly comparable to the other oils which use the D4683 method.

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If this has already been said, please ignore. M1 0W-40 was designed specifically this way to meet the demanding A3/B3/B4 specification, and still meet the fuel efficiency requirements (and other requirements) of MB 229.3/5, Audi/VW 503.01 LongLife, etc. Mobil accomplished this with one oil, while others require two (or three). This is truly a world oil, as they say. Also, as an aside, manufacturer oil specs are created specifically for that manufacturer's homologated engines - requiring mechanical alterations and advanced oil monitoring. MB 229.5 oil may not offer any more advantages to non-MB 229.5 equipment than would an A3 oil. [ July 27, 2003, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: geo ]

 

[buster]

Good point Geo.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by 4DR Turbo: see i read a post like this and question my current oil choice Mobil1 0W40 ss for my 2001 VW Golf 1.8T? i've done a fair amount of research on "what oil grade to use" and have decided on the 0w40ss, should i be using something else??? btw i change it about every 8000KM or less.

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I look at it like this: Every Porsche (even the turbo models) rolls out of the factory with Mobil 1 0w40 in the engine. I really, REALLY doubt Porsche engineers would put an oil in their engines that they were not 100% confident could protect it under any conditions it's likely to be driven in. Bottom line: If it can protect a Porsche turbo, it can protect your VW turbo.

 

[geo]

quote:

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Originally posted by 4DR Turbo: see i read a post like this and question my current oil choice Mobil1 0W40 ss for my 2001 VW Golf 1.8T? i've done a fair amount of research on "what oil grade to use" and have decided on the 0w40ss, should i be using something else??? btw i change it about every 8000KM or less.

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4DR Turbo, I believe that M1 0w-40 is one of the best PCMOs (OTS or not). And, as long as your oil consumption is relatively low with this oil - for the benefit of your cat, rings, etc., I would use it. Newer VW/Audi engines esp. with K03 turbos have narrower passages, higher oil flow rates, high temps, and benefit from 0w/5w wt. cold viscosity, 40 wt. (or 30 wt, if robust enough) hot viscosity, and 3.5 min HTHS oil. There is anecdotal evidence that suggests that one reason Audi K03 turbos are damaged is because of too thick cold oil, or too thin hot oil viscosity. If you plan to change this oil every 8000km (5000m), I believe you will be fine without an UOA. Hope I didn't offend anyone! Though, an UOA will tell if all is well with your engine. [ July 28, 2003, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: geo ]

 

[moribundman]

quote:

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One thing to also remember, as the oil thins out, it's HTHS gets even lower. So if 0w40 has an HTHS of 3.6 when new, at 14.4cst, just imagine what it'll be once it has thinned out to 12cst.

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Patman (and anyone else), I thought the HT/HS listed in an oil's spec sheet referred always to the minimum HT/HS (after the oil has thinned out). Am I sadly mistaken?