I don't think it will hurt anything either, but I'm more interested to see it on a UOA first so I can see the "before" and "after" pictures to help measure the results.
MMO full oci?
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I don't think it will hurt anything either, but I'm more interested to see it on a UOA first so I can see the "before" and "after" pictures to help measure the results.
I'm just bust'em..........c3po doesn't bite does he? I know he does like his MMO.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'm just bust'em..........c3po doesn't bite does he? I know he does like his MMO.
Oh I know... Just funnin' with yah.
He doesn't bite...............Hard that is....
I'm just bust'em..........c3po doesn't bite does he? I know he does like his MMO.
Oh I know... Just funnin' with yah.
He doesn't bite...............Hard that is....
But what will it help with. MMO seems to work on varnish and soft deposits when adding to the crankcase. But I have yet to see any compression improvement in motors that have stuck rings.
Folks may see some mileage gains from simply breaking down the viscocity of the host oil. Show me the stats.
Folks may see some mileage gains from simply breaking down the viscocity of the host oil. Show me the stats.
I plan to use a quart of MMO this OCI. My have a 99 SL2 Saturn with 150,000. Auto-RX used 3 times (I would say 4 but forgot to close my Fumoto valve initially). Bought the car with 71,000 miles. Neglected. Auto-RX made improvements in performance. Maybe ring cleaning, but had no effect on oil consumption. Went from 3/4 quart every 3,000 miles to 4 quarts per 3,000 miles currently. I have used different oils, but did not make a noticeable difference in consumption. Occasionally, I get smoke when in traffic. I am thinking valve guide seals. I put 24 oz of MMO as top off since 8/2. Will change that out 8/28. Engine running very smooth. I want to do UOA's and report if it helps with consumption problem after next OCI. I have read a lot here and at the MMO forum. Seems like there is the experienced users of MMO who have had no problems and positive results. There are those who do not recommend it because of the ingredients or problems they think it will cause. Hopefully, I can add to the positive experience side with some OCI's backed by UOA's.
Seems lately since a VOA report is floating about somewhere that MMO is getting a bad rap. Shame really it is a great product. I'd save my money on the UOA. Seems there is a lot of Bias for certain products here, and MMO isn't one of them. JMO
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Originally Posted By: ADFD1
Seems lately since a VOA report is floating about somewhere that MMO is getting a bad rap. Shame really it is a great product. I'd save my money on the UOA. Seems there is a lot of Bias for certain products here, and MMO isn't one of them. JMO
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It's not floating anywhere, you need to join Terry Dyson's blog for $29.00 to get your hands on it, when someone hides a VOA on there little board then I am a little bit wary because I feel he is hiding something.
Seems lately since a VOA report is floating about somewhere that MMO is getting a bad rap. Shame really it is a great product. I'd save my money on the UOA. Seems there is a lot of Bias for certain products here, and MMO isn't one of them. JMO
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It's not floating anywhere, you need to join Terry Dyson's blog for $29.00 to get your hands on it, when someone hides a VOA on there little board then I am a little bit wary because I feel he is hiding something.
Someone should get there own VOA and post it!
Originally Posted By: MONKEYMAN
I plan to use a quart of MMO this OCI. My have a 99 SL2 Saturn with 150,000. Auto-RX used 3 times (I would say 4 but forgot to close my Fumoto valve initially). Bought the car with 71,000 miles. Neglected. Auto-RX made improvements in performance. Maybe ring cleaning, but had no effect on oil consumption. Went from 3/4 quart every 3,000 miles to 4 quarts per 3,000 miles currently. I have used different oils, but did not make a noticeable difference in consumption. Occasionally, I get smoke when in traffic. I am thinking valve guide seals. I put 24 oz of MMO as top off since 8/2. Will change that out 8/28. Engine running very smooth. I want to do UOA's and report if it helps with consumption problem after next OCI. I have read a lot here and at the MMO forum. Seems like there is the experienced users of MMO who have had no problems and positive results. There are those who do not recommend it because of the ingredients or problems they think it will cause. Hopefully, I can add to the positive experience side with some OCI's backed by UOA's.
Have you ever done a "piston soak?" MMO works well for that, at least that's what I've read over at Saturnfans.com...
I plan to use a quart of MMO this OCI. My have a 99 SL2 Saturn with 150,000. Auto-RX used 3 times (I would say 4 but forgot to close my Fumoto valve initially). Bought the car with 71,000 miles. Neglected. Auto-RX made improvements in performance. Maybe ring cleaning, but had no effect on oil consumption. Went from 3/4 quart every 3,000 miles to 4 quarts per 3,000 miles currently. I have used different oils, but did not make a noticeable difference in consumption. Occasionally, I get smoke when in traffic. I am thinking valve guide seals. I put 24 oz of MMO as top off since 8/2. Will change that out 8/28. Engine running very smooth. I want to do UOA's and report if it helps with consumption problem after next OCI. I have read a lot here and at the MMO forum. Seems like there is the experienced users of MMO who have had no problems and positive results. There are those who do not recommend it because of the ingredients or problems they think it will cause. Hopefully, I can add to the positive experience side with some OCI's backed by UOA's.
Have you ever done a "piston soak?" MMO works well for that, at least that's what I've read over at Saturnfans.com...
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Have you ever done a "piston soak?" MMO works well for that, at least that's what I've read over at Saturnfans.com...
Last fall, but I used LC20. Car ran better. Smoked for a while. I can see some metal now on the piston tops. Reason I am trying MMO in the oil is others at SaturnFans had success put ATF in their oil. Since that does not have as much info on the internet, I thought I would use MMO since that has a lot of info. Here is the link to the ATF in oil thread:
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138987
Also, I still want to do a UOA. I may try a quart of transmission fluid in my oil and do another UOA to see if there is a difference.
Have you ever done a "piston soak?" MMO works well for that, at least that's what I've read over at Saturnfans.com...
Last fall, but I used LC20. Car ran better. Smoked for a while. I can see some metal now on the piston tops. Reason I am trying MMO in the oil is others at SaturnFans had success put ATF in their oil. Since that does not have as much info on the internet, I thought I would use MMO since that has a lot of info. Here is the link to the ATF in oil thread:
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138987
Also, I still want to do a UOA. I may try a quart of transmission fluid in my oil and do another UOA to see if there is a difference.
Dyson followers with a VOA are giving MMO a bad rap as a fuel additive because it purportedly contains materials that are known to damage catalytic converters to which the Marvel Mystery Oil FAQ says baloney. I don't see any posts that says MMO is a bad oil additive.
Originally Posted By: Marvel Mystery Oil FAQ
Will MMO cause any damage to oxygen sensors, fuel sensors or catalytic converters?
No. MMO has undergone rigorous testing to ensure the safety of all internal components in your vehicle including highly-sensitive oxygen sensors, fuel sensors and catalytic converters.
Originally Posted By: Marvel Mystery Oil FAQ
Will MMO cause any damage to oxygen sensors, fuel sensors or catalytic converters?
No. MMO has undergone rigorous testing to ensure the safety of all internal components in your vehicle including highly-sensitive oxygen sensors, fuel sensors and catalytic converters.
It is interesting. Has anyone ever heard of MMO damaging anything on a motor? I have never found anything. I was advised not to use it by a very knowledgeable person at SaturnFans based on what is in MMO. Could it be once it is in your engine the chemistry changes and is not so bad?
Originally Posted By: severach
Dyson followers with a VOA are giving MMO a bad rap as a fuel additive because it purportedly contains materials that are known to damage catalytic converters to which the Marvel Mystery Oil FAQ says baloney. I don't see any posts that says MMO is a bad oil additive.
Originally Posted By: Marvel Mystery Oil FAQ
Will MMO cause any damage to oxygen sensors, fuel sensors or catalytic converters?
No. MMO has undergone rigorous testing to ensure the safety of all internal components in your vehicle including highly-sensitive oxygen sensors, fuel sensors and catalytic converters.
I can tell you exactly why Dyson is giving MMO a bad rap, I was on the ARX Discussion Board, and guess what oil analysis company was down on the bottom, Dyson Oil Analysis, do you think for a minute that Dyson would be on there if it were promoting or saying it is o.k. too use MMO. I remember responding to a question on the arx forum about oil analysis, I recommended Blackstone, I get a message saying Dyson is on here and that is who we recommend.
I will not tell you if there is some agreement between Dyson and ARX about MMO, but I think you can guess what is going on.
Dyson followers with a VOA are giving MMO a bad rap as a fuel additive because it purportedly contains materials that are known to damage catalytic converters to which the Marvel Mystery Oil FAQ says baloney. I don't see any posts that says MMO is a bad oil additive.
Originally Posted By: Marvel Mystery Oil FAQ
Will MMO cause any damage to oxygen sensors, fuel sensors or catalytic converters?
No. MMO has undergone rigorous testing to ensure the safety of all internal components in your vehicle including highly-sensitive oxygen sensors, fuel sensors and catalytic converters.
I can tell you exactly why Dyson is giving MMO a bad rap, I was on the ARX Discussion Board, and guess what oil analysis company was down on the bottom, Dyson Oil Analysis, do you think for a minute that Dyson would be on there if it were promoting or saying it is o.k. too use MMO. I remember responding to a question on the arx forum about oil analysis, I recommended Blackstone, I get a message saying Dyson is on here and that is who we recommend.
I will not tell you if there is some agreement between Dyson and ARX about MMO, but I think you can guess what is going on.
Originally Posted By: severach
Dyson followers with a VOA are giving MMO a bad rap as a fuel additive because it purportedly contains materials that are known to damage catalytic converters to which the Marvel Mystery Oil FAQ says baloney. I don't see any posts that says MMO is a bad oil additive.
Originally Posted By: Marvel Mystery Oil FAQ
Will MMO cause any damage to oxygen sensors, fuel sensors or catalytic converters?
No. MMO has undergone rigorous testing to ensure the safety of all internal components in your vehicle including highly-sensitive oxygen sensors, fuel sensors and catalytic converters.
I've lost track of how many times I've posted this, but I will repeat myself again. I've been using the stuff for decades in oil and gas. Carb engines, EFI, cat converters, and regular exhaust systems. In 1987 I bought a new 1988 E-150 van. At the time MMO was selling Inverse Oilers, I had been adding MMO to the gas in all my vehicles and thought the Inverse Oiler might be a good idea. I ordered 2 of them, and installed one in a 85 E-150 and another in an 88 E-150. Both vans were used in severe service applications. A few years back I sold the 85 E-150 with over 150,000 miles and the original cat converter. I am still driving the 88 E-150 original cat converter.
My 93 Aerostar has about 175,000 miles on it, MMO added to the gas tank, original cat converter. 95 Chevy Caprice had MMO added to the gas. My brother uses it in a 150,000 mile 318 Ram pick up, as well as his boat, and wife's mini van. We've never failed emissions with these vehicles, and never replaced a cat converter, ever.
Yes phosphorus can damage a cat converter, but at what dose? I think we have a knee jerk reaction here, based on a VOA, and opinions. Here is real world results, spanning over 20 years with my 88 E-150. I've OD'ed the stuff too, no problem.
When my son deploys to Afghanistan we change his oil prep the car, and add 1 full qt of MMO to his gas,. We drive the car for about 45 minutes or so, and store the car for no less than 6 months. No cat problems on his 2000 323i with over 120,000 miles on it.
I'll take real world over a lab test any day. YMMV
These are just a few examples of cat converter vehicles. I was adding MMO to my 1966 Ford Falcon. We go back quite a few years. i could ramble on about positive results I've seen, but I'll stop here.
Dyson followers with a VOA are giving MMO a bad rap as a fuel additive because it purportedly contains materials that are known to damage catalytic converters to which the Marvel Mystery Oil FAQ says baloney. I don't see any posts that says MMO is a bad oil additive.
Originally Posted By: Marvel Mystery Oil FAQ
Will MMO cause any damage to oxygen sensors, fuel sensors or catalytic converters?
No. MMO has undergone rigorous testing to ensure the safety of all internal components in your vehicle including highly-sensitive oxygen sensors, fuel sensors and catalytic converters.
I've lost track of how many times I've posted this, but I will repeat myself again. I've been using the stuff for decades in oil and gas. Carb engines, EFI, cat converters, and regular exhaust systems. In 1987 I bought a new 1988 E-150 van. At the time MMO was selling Inverse Oilers, I had been adding MMO to the gas in all my vehicles and thought the Inverse Oiler might be a good idea. I ordered 2 of them, and installed one in a 85 E-150 and another in an 88 E-150. Both vans were used in severe service applications. A few years back I sold the 85 E-150 with over 150,000 miles and the original cat converter. I am still driving the 88 E-150 original cat converter.
My 93 Aerostar has about 175,000 miles on it, MMO added to the gas tank, original cat converter. 95 Chevy Caprice had MMO added to the gas. My brother uses it in a 150,000 mile 318 Ram pick up, as well as his boat, and wife's mini van. We've never failed emissions with these vehicles, and never replaced a cat converter, ever.
Yes phosphorus can damage a cat converter, but at what dose? I think we have a knee jerk reaction here, based on a VOA, and opinions. Here is real world results, spanning over 20 years with my 88 E-150. I've OD'ed the stuff too, no problem.
When my son deploys to Afghanistan we change his oil prep the car, and add 1 full qt of MMO to his gas,. We drive the car for about 45 minutes or so, and store the car for no less than 6 months. No cat problems on his 2000 323i with over 120,000 miles on it.
I'll take real world over a lab test any day. YMMV
These are just a few examples of cat converter vehicles. I was adding MMO to my 1966 Ford Falcon. We go back quite a few years. i could ramble on about positive results I've seen, but I'll stop here.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: severach
Dyson followers with a VOA are giving MMO a bad rap as a fuel additive because it purportedly contains materials that are known to damage catalytic converters to which the Marvel Mystery Oil FAQ says baloney. I don't see any posts that says MMO is a bad oil additive.
Originally Posted By: Marvel Mystery Oil FAQ
Will MMO cause any damage to oxygen sensors, fuel sensors or catalytic converters?
No. MMO has undergone rigorous testing to ensure the safety of all internal components in your vehicle including highly-sensitive oxygen sensors, fuel sensors and catalytic converters.
I've lost track of how many times I've posted this, but I will repeat myself again. I've been using the stuff for decades in oil and gas. Carb engines, EFI, cat converters, and regular exhaust systems. In 1987 I bought a new 1988 E-150 van. At the time MMO was selling Inverse Oilers, I had been adding MMO to the gas in all my vehicles and thought the Inverse Oiler might be a good idea. I ordered 2 of them, and installed one in a 85 E-150 and another in an 88 E-150. Both vans were used in severe service applications. A few years back I sold the 85 E-150 with over 150,000 miles and the original cat converter. I am still driving the 88 E-150 original cat converter.
My 93 Aerostar has about 175,000 miles on it, MMO added to the gas tank, original cat converter. 95 Chevy Caprice had MMO added to the gas. My brother uses it in a 150,000 mile 318 Ram pick up, as well as his boat, and wife's mini van. We've never failed emissions with these vehicles, and never replaced a cat converter, ever.
Yes phosphorus can damage a cat converter, but at what dose? I think we have a knee jerk reaction here, based on a VOA, and opinions. Here is real world results, spanning over 20 years with my 88 E-150. I've OD'ed the stuff too, no problem.
When my son deploys to Afghanistan we change his oil prep the car, and add 1 full qt of MMO to his gas,. We drive the car for about 45 minutes or so, and store the car for no less than 6 months. No cat problems on his 2000 323i with over 120,000 miles on it.
I'll take real world over a lab test any day. YMMV
These are just a few examples of cat converter vehicles. I was adding MMO to my 1966 Ford Falcon. We go back quite a few years. i could ramble on about positive results I've seen, but I'll stop here.
Good post Demarpaint, I know you've posted your experiences many times before. I'll take real world usage anyday, you have been very successful. I've been adding MMO to my fuel for a little bit now and I really like the stuff.
Originally Posted By: severach
Dyson followers with a VOA are giving MMO a bad rap as a fuel additive because it purportedly contains materials that are known to damage catalytic converters to which the Marvel Mystery Oil FAQ says baloney. I don't see any posts that says MMO is a bad oil additive.
Originally Posted By: Marvel Mystery Oil FAQ
Will MMO cause any damage to oxygen sensors, fuel sensors or catalytic converters?
No. MMO has undergone rigorous testing to ensure the safety of all internal components in your vehicle including highly-sensitive oxygen sensors, fuel sensors and catalytic converters.
I've lost track of how many times I've posted this, but I will repeat myself again. I've been using the stuff for decades in oil and gas. Carb engines, EFI, cat converters, and regular exhaust systems. In 1987 I bought a new 1988 E-150 van. At the time MMO was selling Inverse Oilers, I had been adding MMO to the gas in all my vehicles and thought the Inverse Oiler might be a good idea. I ordered 2 of them, and installed one in a 85 E-150 and another in an 88 E-150. Both vans were used in severe service applications. A few years back I sold the 85 E-150 with over 150,000 miles and the original cat converter. I am still driving the 88 E-150 original cat converter.
My 93 Aerostar has about 175,000 miles on it, MMO added to the gas tank, original cat converter. 95 Chevy Caprice had MMO added to the gas. My brother uses it in a 150,000 mile 318 Ram pick up, as well as his boat, and wife's mini van. We've never failed emissions with these vehicles, and never replaced a cat converter, ever.
Yes phosphorus can damage a cat converter, but at what dose? I think we have a knee jerk reaction here, based on a VOA, and opinions. Here is real world results, spanning over 20 years with my 88 E-150. I've OD'ed the stuff too, no problem.
When my son deploys to Afghanistan we change his oil prep the car, and add 1 full qt of MMO to his gas,. We drive the car for about 45 minutes or so, and store the car for no less than 6 months. No cat problems on his 2000 323i with over 120,000 miles on it.
I'll take real world over a lab test any day. YMMV
These are just a few examples of cat converter vehicles. I was adding MMO to my 1966 Ford Falcon. We go back quite a few years. i could ramble on about positive results I've seen, but I'll stop here.
Good post Demarpaint, I know you've posted your experiences many times before. I'll take real world usage anyday, you have been very successful. I've been adding MMO to my fuel for a little bit now and I really like the stuff.
Glad I can help, and trust me there is nothing in any of this for me! US takes Emissions pretty serious, if MMO was destroying cat converters they'd be in a world of tshit!
I've used MMO in the tank in my last two Camaros. Both of those went over 140k miles, and never, ever, failed an emmission test.
I've used it in the Z4 for 60k miles with the same result. (Giving the TC-W3 a try now.)
Cats have been around since what, 1975 or so? If MMO was wrecking them, one one think they would of been called on the carpet by now.
I've used it in the Z4 for 60k miles with the same result. (Giving the TC-W3 a try now.)
Cats have been around since what, 1975 or so? If MMO was wrecking them, one one think they would of been called on the carpet by now.
Originally Posted By: Trajan
I've used MMO in the tank in my last two Camaros. Both of those went over 140k miles, and never, ever, failed an emmission test.
I've used it in the Z4 for 60k miles with the same result. (Giving the TC-W3 a try now.)
Cats have been around since what, 1975 or so? If MMO was wrecking them, one one think they would of been called on the carpet by now.
I have to agree with this statement, except I thought 1977 was the 1st year for cat converters.
I've used MMO in the tank in my last two Camaros. Both of those went over 140k miles, and never, ever, failed an emmission test.
I've used it in the Z4 for 60k miles with the same result. (Giving the TC-W3 a try now.)
Cats have been around since what, 1975 or so? If MMO was wrecking them, one one think they would of been called on the carpet by now.
I have to agree with this statement, except I thought 1977 was the 1st year for cat converters.
Originally Posted By: Trajan
I've used MMO in the tank in my last two Camaros. Both of those went over 140k miles, and never, ever, failed an emmission test.
I've used it in the Z4 for 60k miles with the same result. (Giving the TC-W3 a try now.)
Cats have been around since what, 1975 or so? If MMO was wrecking them, one one think they would of been called on the carpet by now.
I guess you're in the same boat as Demarpaint, and my family with the use of MMO. I doubt TC-W3 will ruin your cat conv either. It gets very hot inside a combustion chamber and anything that is combustible gets burnt off pretty quick.
Doesn't really matter what year they came out the point is they've been around for over 30 years. The MMO wrecking them complaints would burn up a lot of internet bandwith by now.
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I've used MMO in the tank in my last two Camaros. Both of those went over 140k miles, and never, ever, failed an emmission test.
I've used it in the Z4 for 60k miles with the same result. (Giving the TC-W3 a try now.)
Cats have been around since what, 1975 or so? If MMO was wrecking them, one one think they would of been called on the carpet by now.
I guess you're in the same boat as Demarpaint, and my family with the use of MMO. I doubt TC-W3 will ruin your cat conv either. It gets very hot inside a combustion chamber and anything that is combustible gets burnt off pretty quick.
Doesn't really matter what year they came out the point is they've been around for over 30 years. The MMO wrecking them complaints would burn up a lot of internet bandwith by now.
AD
Quote:
I've lost track of how many times I've posted this, but I will repeat myself again. I've been using the stuff for decades in oil and gas. Carb engines, EFI, cat converters, and regular exhaust systems. In 1987 I bought a new 1988 E-150 van. At the time MMO was selling Inverse Oilers, I had been adding MMO to the gas in all my vehicles and thought the Inverse Oiler might be a good idea. I ordered 2 of them, and installed one in a 85 E-150 and another in an 88 E-150. Both vans were used in severe service applications. A few years back I sold the 85 E-150 with over 150,000 miles and the original cat converter. I am still driving the 88 E-150 original cat converter.
My 93 Aerostar has about 175,000 miles on it, MMO added to the gas tank, original cat converter. 95 Chevy Caprice had MMO added to the gas. My brother uses it in a 150,000 mile 318 Ram pick up, as well as his boat, and wife's mini van. We've never failed emissions with these vehicles, and never replaced a cat converter, ever.
Yes phosphorus can damage a cat converter, but at what dose? I think we have a knee jerk reaction here, based on a VOA, and opinions. Here is real world results, spanning over 20 years with my 88 E-150. I've OD'ed the stuff too, no problem.
When my son deploys to Afghanistan we change his oil prep the car, and add 1 full qt of MMO to his gas,. We drive the car for about 45 minutes or so, and store the car for no less than 6 months. No cat problems on his 2000 323i with over 120,000 miles on it.
I'll take real world over a lab test any day. YMMV
These are just a few examples of cat converter vehicles. I was adding MMO to my 1966 Ford Falcon. We go back quite a few years. i could ramble on about positive results I've seen, but I'll stop here.
This is exactly what I was thinking, people seem to freak out at the fact that MMO contains phosphorus whitout knowing it's concentration.
Demarpaint, I will take your real world experiance, and many other's on this site that used MMO with success, plus MMO's assurance that their product doesn't damage cat. converters anytime over some test that was done by a lab that is known to have a conflict of interest between ARX and MMO.
I've lost track of how many times I've posted this, but I will repeat myself again. I've been using the stuff for decades in oil and gas. Carb engines, EFI, cat converters, and regular exhaust systems. In 1987 I bought a new 1988 E-150 van. At the time MMO was selling Inverse Oilers, I had been adding MMO to the gas in all my vehicles and thought the Inverse Oiler might be a good idea. I ordered 2 of them, and installed one in a 85 E-150 and another in an 88 E-150. Both vans were used in severe service applications. A few years back I sold the 85 E-150 with over 150,000 miles and the original cat converter. I am still driving the 88 E-150 original cat converter.
My 93 Aerostar has about 175,000 miles on it, MMO added to the gas tank, original cat converter. 95 Chevy Caprice had MMO added to the gas. My brother uses it in a 150,000 mile 318 Ram pick up, as well as his boat, and wife's mini van. We've never failed emissions with these vehicles, and never replaced a cat converter, ever.
Yes phosphorus can damage a cat converter, but at what dose? I think we have a knee jerk reaction here, based on a VOA, and opinions. Here is real world results, spanning over 20 years with my 88 E-150. I've OD'ed the stuff too, no problem.
When my son deploys to Afghanistan we change his oil prep the car, and add 1 full qt of MMO to his gas,. We drive the car for about 45 minutes or so, and store the car for no less than 6 months. No cat problems on his 2000 323i with over 120,000 miles on it.
I'll take real world over a lab test any day. YMMV
These are just a few examples of cat converter vehicles. I was adding MMO to my 1966 Ford Falcon. We go back quite a few years. i could ramble on about positive results I've seen, but I'll stop here.
This is exactly what I was thinking, people seem to freak out at the fact that MMO contains phosphorus whitout knowing it's concentration.
Demarpaint, I will take your real world experiance, and many other's on this site that used MMO with success, plus MMO's assurance that their product doesn't damage cat. converters anytime over some test that was done by a lab that is known to have a conflict of interest between ARX and MMO.
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