Minimal heat demand - heat pump vs. resistive backup (big setback)

Joined
Oct 30, 2015
Messages
882
Location
Nebraska
My new apartment is all electric and has an 18k BTU heat pump (low-end Carrier split system, 14 SEER, newish), with 8k watts of backup resistive heat.

I like to sleep very cool and am gone for most of the day during the week. If I had a more conventional system like a gas furnace, I'd keep the apartment around 60F most of the time (that's also my ideal sleeping temperature), and program the thermostat to bump up to 70F when I'm home and awake (say, 5-10pm on weekdays and all day on weekends). Now, this runs exactly opposite the conventional wisdom of heat pump thermostat settings - keep them quite consistent around the clock.

For what it's worth, I'm not trying to be cheap, I just think it is an interesting question given the apartment can go most of the time with very little heat (it hasn't dropped below 66 yet this year inside, despite lows around freezing and days with highs in the 40s). That said, it gets pretty cold in Nebraska - think typical winter lows in the teens/20s and highs in the 30s with cold snaps colder than that.

Further complicating this, the apartment also faces south, so it seems to stay plenty warm even on cold days as long as the sun is out. I share most walls so the heat demand is quite low. I wouldn't be surprised if it never got much below 60F in here with the heat shut entirely off.

Any thoughts on the best option below?

A: have it programmed to 60F most of the time, and then use resistive backup heat (aux heat) to overcome the setback (the thermostat automatically jumps to aux heat if the delta is over one degree (which was smaller than I expected)). Due to that small delta, the aux heat will click on every time it comes out of setback. This is the "let the system handle it" approach, but the system's logic is limited to a cheap programmable thermostat which just automatically engages aux heat if the delta is over a degree or if it's taking too long to catch up.

B: keep it at 70 around the clock so that resistive backup (aux heat) is rarely needed, and rely only (mostly) on the heat pump.

C: keep it locked in EmHeat on the thermostat (locking out the heat pump entirely so it never runs) and program it to 60F night/away, and 70F when home.

My math suggests that aux heat comes out on top for costs if it runs 1/6 the time of the heat pump or so (given the heat pump likely pulls around 1200-1500 watts, and the heat strips are 8000 watts). That time split seems plausible, though, considering the air that the heat pump puts out is pretty lukewarm compared to the backup heat (think "is this even on?" vs. a steady stream of hot air - I'd guess 80 or 85F vs. 125F, based on a quick Google).

If I had a gas furnace and the heat pump, I think the furnace would be the clear winner here, but it's nice not having a gas bill and the associated fees for just an apartment (fees that would probably eclipse usage). My electric rate is 9 cents per kWh, for what that's worth.
 
I'd never lock it to emergency heat. Even with both the heat pump and the strips running it will be more efficient than just getting all of the heat from the strips.

Can you program it to gently ramp up the heat over a few hours instead of jumping from 60-70 in one go?
 
Probably keeping it at 70 so resistive heat never comes on, would cost nearly nothing if the apt would be at 60 with no heat. Can you close your bedroom door and open a window?
That's what we do with a woodstove, so the house is warm and the bedrooms cool.
 
Check your thermostat settings to see if you can change the Delta. Mine was defaulted to >1 deg but it was programmable to >3 deg. The problem with heat pumps is that if you let everything in the house get cold (walls, floor, furniture) the air temp output is so low that it never seems to be able to catch up and runs for hours trying. Your not just heating the air but every solid surface needs to come up to temp also.
I am in a house and put a free standing gas stove in the living room so I can close the bedroom doors and just warm the living space a few deg. I dont know what you can do in an apartment other than closing the bedroom door and shutting off the vent to keep that room cooler.
 
I'd never lock it to emergency heat. Even with both the heat pump and the strips running it will be more efficient than just getting all of the heat from the strips.

Can you program it to gently ramp up the heat over a few hours instead of jumping from 60-70 in one go?

That's the way to go. Even if it takes 5 hours to go from 60F to 70F, just having heat drip feeding in feels comfortable, more so than everything shutting off at 70F after an hour and then slowly cooling down again. I'd look into disabling the strips until needed.
 
Door # B. Avoid resistive heating as it will be at least twice or maybe three times the cost. A proper thermostat system has an outdoor temperature sensor and automatically switches to strip heating if the outdoor temperature is too low for the heat pump. Can you check if your unit has an outdoor temperature sensor? Send us a pic of your display if you like.
 
Are there multiple ducts or is it the hang on wall unit(s).

My ducted unit doesn't have great insulation on the ducts and probably air leaks since they are old. That limits what the unit can do as it gets constant cold around the air it's trying to warm. Check for air leaks around windows etc anyway and maybe some caulking or even the window heat shrink stuff to eliminate breeze.

I have mine set to about 62 since wife wants it cooler. I do have an oil hot water boiler with baseboard heating to use as needed. When cold out I have the baseboards come on to help get the air warmer which the heat pump circulates then. For me that also keeps the pipes from freezing, no issue for you.

A better thermostat might be an option and maybe not to costly. You could always take it with you if you leave and put the old back. I like the ramp up idea that maybe goes up a couple degrees over the time before you get home.

No clue on efficiency or lack thereof but a plug in heater version for the rooms you are in may be an option. My friend had 2 oil filled plug in ones that looked like old school wall radiators. They would heat up the room and keep emitting for a while.
 
I am in a house and put a free standing gas stove in the living room so I can close the bedroom doors and just warm the living space a few deg. I dont know what you can do in an apartment other than closing the bedroom door and shutting off the vent to keep that room cooler.
This is the answer, run a space heater at night near the thermostat so it fakes it into running cooler in your bedroom. The resistive electric heat is what you'd get anyway, but you'll be getting a little less this way.
 
The lower the Delta T, the less energy you will consume. Unfortunately, bringing the place back up to temp quickly can create a situation where resistance heat is used. Instead of disconnecting the wire, put a switch on it and use it seasonally.

I do something like this with my FL 2.5/5 Ton AC. I disable the 5 Ton compressor during mild months or when living "off grid" due to hurricane power outages.
 
This sounds like a really crappy thermostat. I have a hybrid heat pump setup that's a bit larger than yours, with my aux heat being 2-stage gas. My threshold for the changeover from heat pump to aux is ambient temperature, not the delta between ambient and set. Mine is currently programmed to run the heat pump down to -5C, below that, it uses gas. I haven't used gas yet this fall, and probably won't for most of December. I can also manually override it if I want. The heat pump can do the work down to about -10C but it runs for very long periods at that temperature, which is why it's at -5C.

Would there be a problem with getting a better thermostat?
 
Hp don't like setback temperature especially 10° setback. All hps lose btu ratings as temperatures drop. Hp published btu's is 47° and 17°other temps are published talking to the manufacturer tech dept. Air is easy to heat ,mass is harder. Could read your meter trying both ways similar days.
 
This sounds like a really crappy thermostat. I have a hybrid heat pump setup that's a bit larger than yours, with my aux heat being 2-stage gas. My threshold for the changeover from heat pump to aux is ambient temperature, not the delta between ambient and set. Mine is currently programmed to run the heat pump down to -5C, below that, it uses gas. I haven't used gas yet this fall, and probably won't for most of December. I can also manually override it if I want. The heat pump can do the work down to about -10C but it runs for very long periods at that temperature, which is why it's at -5C.

Would there be a problem with getting a better thermostat?

Funny you say that - I had a Nest here when I moved in but it was replaced as part of a wild goose chase AC troubleshooting saga involving intermittent failures (it ended up being the TXV that was bad).

They replaced it with this:
1732151364585.webp


I count myself lucky that it's a programmable model, after being in lots of apartments with non-programmable stats.

The Nest wasn't my favorite for a few reasons (namely that it really didn't want to hold a particular temperature - the vacation scenario, and I found myself fighting it more than I liked), though the app and usage stats were neat.

I honestly prefer this - I program it where I think I want it, and can override it as needed, both temporarily (til the end of the period) and permanently (a hold that was missing on the Nest). The Nest also didn't allow selection of aux heat (like this does with the mode switch). The maintenance guy offered to come back with another Nest if I ever want, too.

I read the installer's manual and ended up not seeing anything about a heat pump offset... here are the configuration sections:
1732151770356.webp

1732151720088.webp
 
Avoid resistive heat at all cost. You probably can achieve what you want by setting the temperature gradually to pre-heat before you wake up and leave the "shut off after you go to sleep" alone. You don't need a system that can ramp too fast by using resistive heat. Sure you will have some heat transfer this way but it will not be 3x the cost for just a 10F difference. Slow ramping with multiple time slot would be enough to prevent resistive heat from coming on.
 
Funny you say that - I had a Nest here when I moved in but it was replaced as part of a wild goose chase AC troubleshooting saga involving intermittent failures (it ended up being the TXV that was bad).

They replaced it with this:
View attachment 250787

I count myself lucky that it's a programmable model, after being in lots of apartments with non-programmable stats.

The Nest wasn't my favorite for a few reasons (namely that it really didn't want to hold a particular temperature - the vacation scenario, and I found myself fighting it more than I liked), though the app and usage stats were neat.

I honestly prefer this - I program it where I think I want it, and can override it as needed, both temporarily (til the end of the period) and permanently (a hold that was missing on the Nest). The Nest also didn't allow selection of aux heat (like this does with the mode switch). The maintenance guy offered to come back with another Nest if I ever want, too.

I read the installer's manual and ended up not seeing anything about a heat pump offset... here are the configuration sections:
View attachment 250793
View attachment 250792
So, to quote you earlier, this behaviour:

(the thermostat automatically jumps to aux heat if the delta is over one degree (which was smaller than I expected)). Due to that small delta, the aux heat will click on every time it comes out of setback.

Are you saying you are now fine with this? Or that it's not in fact doing this or?
 
So, to quote you earlier, this behaviour:

(the thermostat automatically jumps to aux heat if the delta is over one degree (which was smaller than I expected)). Due to that small delta, the aux heat will click on every time it comes out of setback.

Are you saying you are now fine with this? Or that it's not in fact doing this or?
Sorry if that was confusing, I appreciate everyone's help. I was just saying I seem to prefer the basic stat to the Nest I had here before, and explaining its quirk of behavior regarding the jumping to aux heat. This is my first heating season here so I'm not really sure how the two stats would compare. And it's not a problem, I was just trying to figure out the optimal way to handle this with the stat which likely has the behavior above (vs. smarter logic).

To clarify, as far as I can tell, yes - it seems to jump to aux heat when the room temp is more than one degree off the set point. But that was from my playing around with it a few times with a fairly warm apartment - it's hard to tell so far as I've not really needed much heat to speak of.

I'll update when I can test the program coming out of a more significant setback, as it's possible that it has some logic that will keep it in heat pump mode if setback is overcome (vs. me just changing the temp manually on hold). I haven't had a good chance to really figure it out as the temp has mostly stayed around 68-72 inside with the heat off, despite temps in the 20s and 30s, since it's been quite sunny and my windows face south (where the sun spends all day this time of year).
 
Back
Top