I was under the assumption you had a dual fuel system with an oil fired furnace. sounds like what your saying is you have an oil fired boiler system as back up heat. At any rate the heat pump is still capable of turning on a source of back up heat during its defrost mode. If you have an air handler and it has electric strip heat in it that should be coming on during defrost to prevent cold air from blowing from the vents.
Heat Pump in Northern Climates?
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That's just not so. People really don't understand energy, the Carnot cycle, the furnace and sink required to move heat, and the motive force behind the compressor. This link is a great one:
The Carnot Cycle – University Physics Volume 2
opentextbc.ca
The "economy" of a modern heat pump can be excellent, that's for sure. But let's not confuse economy and efficiency. If electric prices quadruple, a heat pump won't look so promising.
Absolute best case: 54% efficiency nat gas power plant, 7% grid losses, COP of heat pump 3.0. Result 100 BTU in, 150 BTU out. Over unity for sure, but again, that's best case. Take the 34% natl power plant efficiency as a baseline and things change markedly. 100 in 100 out. Put another way, there is no difference in energy consumption if one heats via an efficient flame or uses the national grid.
I just care that it costs me less.That's just not so. People really don't understand energy, the Carnot cycle, the furnace and sink required to move heat, and the motive force behind the compressor. This link is a great one:
The Carnot Cycle – University Physics Volume 2
The "economy" of a modern heat pump can be excellent, that's for sure. But let's not confuse economy and efficiency. If electric prices quadruple, a heat pump won't look so promising.
Absolute best case: 54% efficiency nat gas power plant, 7% grid losses, COP of heat pump 3.0. Result 100 BTU in, 150 BTU out. Over unity for sure, but again, that's best case. Take the 34% natl power plant efficiency as a baseline and things change markedly. 100 in 100 out. Put another way, there is no difference in energy consumption if one heats via an efficient flame or uses the national grid.
Good post. Now we can re-do the calculation with a hydro electric dam and the results look pretty good. I think for the average consumer we need to look at $ per GJ of heat energy used to heat the house, taking account all the individual efficiencies. It turns out my 70% efficient airtight wood stove pretty much matches my heat pump in $/GJ when temps are above 40 F but I cannot be at home all day to keep it stoked.That's just not so. People really don't understand energy, the Carnot cycle, the furnace and sink required to move heat, and the motive force behind the compressor. This link is a great one:
The Carnot Cycle – University Physics Volume 2
The "economy" of a modern heat pump can be excellent, that's for sure. But let's not confuse economy and efficiency. If electric prices quadruple, a heat pump won't look so promising.
Absolute best case: 54% efficiency nat gas power plant, 7% grid losses, COP of heat pump 3.0. Result 100 BTU in, 150 BTU out. Over unity for sure, but again, that's best case. Take the 34% natl power plant efficiency as a baseline and things change markedly. 100 in 100 out. Put another way, there is no difference in energy consumption if one heats via an efficient flame or uses the national grid.
Pricing of electric power and natural gas are often skewed and don’t reflect the energy prices properly.
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In my situation, in the absolute dead of winter (near constantly below 35) which only lasts maybe a month or two, my energy bills are a bit more than they were with oil heat due to the aux working much of the time; but in all of the autumn, spring, and winter months where the cold is more moderate I am paying about 1/2 to 1/3 of what I did with oil. Overall, my yearly energy expenses are way down since switching to a heat pump.
this is maybe true today, but will be, in ev era and years ahead ?
Again, for me as dual-fuel, I can always turn the HP off and use it as an AC only and oil fuel exclusively for heat if market conditions change in the future. But, isn't this true for any type of heat? We have no idea what the market will be in 10 or 20 years?
Anything powered by hydroelectric tends to look fantastic. In some ways, it is sad to see us decommissioning some hydro dams.
Despite modern heat pump's higher pressures, different working fluids and more efficient heat exchangers, heat pumps have very well understood characteristics that follow the laws of physics, there is no magic here. We understand the limits of the Carnot cycle.
People that note their heat pump works well at -10F, should also note just how oversized their unit is and should accurately state just how many BTU the heat pump (without the resistance heater) is capable of producing at that temp. NOTE: a non sandbagged heat pump capable of 5 tons at 60F will be down to 1.25 tons at -10f.
This is grossly incorrect. The net cost for a heat pump is more expansive, most likely way more expensive then natural gas.
Your forgetting the cost of fuel and the cost of electricity.
There is no way on earth a heat pump would have heated my 3000 sq ft home last month for less then $150 that I paid for natural gas. I purposely leave the second floor heat pump off, since the main floor gas heat rises.
Ok, so here is the post. Your heat pump MAYBE 200 to 300% more efficient because it is moving heat from the outside air to the inside vs. during a fossil fuel. Efficiency of heat pumps is also widely dependent on outside air temperature, even stated by the most respected manufacturer of heat pumps, Trane.
The electricity that you heat pump uses, is at best generated at about 50% efficiency by the time is gets to your house its closer to 30%.
Forward looking, ignoring the above, Call me crazy, but I will make a prediction here, the cost of electricity is going to start climbing like crazy and its already outrageous because partly its so inefficient getting it to your home. What how and who do you think is going to pay for all the new infrastructure and power plants needed to meet demand of this new electrified world?
Do people think all the electric vehicles hitting the roads are going to be powered by some magical source of electricity that is going to replace the fossil fuel they used to run on? Its why I am pro nuclear power, some other nations are leaving us in the dust.
The cost of electricity to your home is far higher than natural gas.
At modern gas furnace is about 90% efficient and the fuel to run it much less.
Here is an interesting quick read. I find it fascinating too.
Oh and before anyone reads it, I just love the photos of coal, oil and gas fired plants spewing out what the public THINKS is smoke! It certainly makes a dramatic photo but lying statement by omission from the media. That smoke in all photos of fossil fuel, gas, oil and coal plants is nothing more then harmless steam used to turn the turbines to create electricity!
The smoke stacks you see with no white smoke and no smoke at all, is the actual exhaust from burning the fuel! GAS, OIL OR COAL.
Same goes for much nuclear fueled plants.
Is a Heat Pump More Efficient Than a Furnace? - Energy Vanguard
Is a heat pump more efficient than a furnace? You have to look at more than the energy you get billed for to get the answer.
www.energyvanguard.com
How Efficient Are Heat Pumps, Really? - Fine Homebuilding
We’re building a detached garage with an in-law apartment above it. We’re uncertain how to heat and cool it, but we’re hearing a lot about minisplit heat pumps, and wondering if they are really more energy efficient.
www.finehomebuilding.com
More from one of the most respected names in Heat Pumps =
Heat Pump vs. Furnace: Which Heating System Is Right For You? - Trane®
Choosing between heat pump vs. furnace options? Discover the system that will help you save money and fulfill your temperature needs.
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There are 3-4 different argument/discussions going on.. and mixing things up abit makes it muddy.
Heat pumps are getting better. Its a worthwhile alternative to propane or oil heat.. on a cost basis. esp if you live around or below I-70 in my area (columbus ohio wheeling WV horizontal line.
They are much better than electric resistance heat esp. in southern states that have developments with no natural gas availability.
As always use common sense.. and there are exceptions to any general rule/statements etc.
Last year I stayed in a house near pigeon forge TN had a heat pump and nice even heat.. this was in an unseasonably cold week where snowstorm followed me south from ohio.. temps in low 30's daytime.. actual Ohio weather was better....
The cycle times were fairly long (compared to my natural gas furnace at home) but it easily met the heating demands.
The only alternative for that housing development was electric resistance heat.
If you live somewhere warm and would barely be using natural gas.. you can also avoid the 30-40$ monthly connection fee (this is based on my gas bill it may vary)
My connection charge and fees for 6months with 0 gas consumption is over 200$ that is more than I actually pay in natural gas consumption charges for the year.. (small house)
Connection charges for the year are over 400$ but electric resistance heat would be more than that for 2 winter months.
Even with natural gas nearly doubling this year heating(water and home) natural gas is still a bargain.
Heat pumps are getting better. Its a worthwhile alternative to propane or oil heat.. on a cost basis. esp if you live around or below I-70 in my area (columbus ohio wheeling WV horizontal line.
They are much better than electric resistance heat esp. in southern states that have developments with no natural gas availability.
As always use common sense.. and there are exceptions to any general rule/statements etc.
Last year I stayed in a house near pigeon forge TN had a heat pump and nice even heat.. this was in an unseasonably cold week where snowstorm followed me south from ohio.. temps in low 30's daytime.. actual Ohio weather was better....
The cycle times were fairly long (compared to my natural gas furnace at home) but it easily met the heating demands.The only alternative for that housing development was electric resistance heat.
If you live somewhere warm and would barely be using natural gas.. you can also avoid the 30-40$ monthly connection fee (this is based on my gas bill it may vary)
My connection charge and fees for 6months with 0 gas consumption is over 200$ that is more than I actually pay in natural gas consumption charges for the year.. (small house)
Connection charges for the year are over 400$ but electric resistance heat would be more than that for 2 winter months.
Even with natural gas nearly doubling this year heating(water and home) natural gas is still a bargain.
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We don't have a "connection charge" unless you want to count the $10 a month facilities charge that we pay.
Gas did not come close to doubling this year, at least in our area (news media sensationalism).
We pay $10 a month for facilities and our natural gas cost is roughly 20% higher than last years price and a total of 35% higher than 2019 which correlates historically in a normal range for fossil fuels.
It still amazes me how cheap it is to heat our 3000 sq ft home built in 2016. Yeah, we do use our set back thermostats and I did go over the insulation while the house was being built with a fine tooth comb and yeah, I did have the insulation contractor come back after the house was built to re-insulate/blown in more attic insulation because they cheated us and yeah, just the other year, I climbed into a complicated area of the house and improved the insulation in there, through a mix of mixing up/fluffing up my own cellulose and fiberglass blankets. ... and ok, most of all! We live in a more moderate climate now, no more New York State!
) and last but not least, we leave our second floor heat pump off except for a few days every winter where someone might be sleeping in the second floor bedrooms/guests. We do have an office on the second floor but the main level gas heat easily heats the 4 second floor rooms if the doors are open. We turn on the heat pump for guests because obviously they close the doors at night.12/27/21 12/29/20
12/27/19
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Interesting, I have dominion for gas.
Last year gas was 12month supply. Gas this december is over 6$ standard offer cheapest I found for contract was 5.79.. with scamo company.
The ONG rate was going from 2.99 to $7.39? 7.xx anyway
With 0 consumption my bill is $35.43
Gas is billed by 1000 cu ft (Mcf) which is...10 therms.
Totally different billing types
you are paying flat 14-15 Mcf but no fees.
Here pay $3-$7Mcf but tons and tons of fees everywhere.. distro recovery tax connection etc.
Converting my use into yours last month I paid 56 (that was with 2.99rate) and with your billing it would be about $86-$90
Now if I had the current 7.39 rate(last month) it would have been aprox $100
So my supply cost on gas doubled but since its about 40% of less of my total bill my bill doesnt double.. (some taxes and fees go up as they are a %)
thankfully I'm rejoining my city's aggregate bargaining unit for 3.31/Mcf next month.
There is a distribution related cost per Mcf (besides the basic distro charge)
as well as a supply cost per Mcf and taxes/fees per Mcf
House is tiny (752 sqft main floor) and surprisingly well insulated. for 1952.
This is going off topic but adding usage and example 0 use bill. This was for 2.99 Mcf period.
@alarmguy I read your post and reedited.
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^^^^ YIKES!! I know I moved south for a reason, BTW A LOT of people from Ohio here. Im from NY and my wife and I only thought NYers came here. But I am thinking people from Ohio just come right down Interstate 81 and get off the exit and stay *LOL* there are so many!
On top of it, we have Dominion too! They bought out our SCEG after a up to 10 BILLION dollar mis-step overseeing the construction of two new nuclear power plants that never got remotely close to completion, now shut down. Coverups on the construction issues, GE equipment issues, wow what a mess.
Did you pick up someplace on my bill that we too have Dominion? or you were just saying who you have.
Is your meter manually read by a human every month? Wondering based on the time stamps...if so, interesting that is still a thing some places.We don't have a "connection charge" unless you want to count the $10 a month facilities charge that we pay.
Gas did not come close to doubling this year, at least in our area (news media sensationalism).
We pay $10 a month for facilities and our natural gas cost is roughly 20% higher than last years price and a total of 35% higher than 2019 which correlates historically in a normal range for fossil fuels.
It still amazes me how cheap it is to heat our 3000 sq ft home built in 2016. Yeah, we do use our set back thermostats and I did go over the insulation while the house was being built with a fine tooth comb and yeah, I did have the insulation contractor come back after the house was built to re-insulate/blown in more attic insulation because they cheated us and yeah, just the other year, I climbed into a complicated area of the house and improved the insulation in there, through a mix of mixing up/fluffing up my own cellulose and fiberglass blankets. ... and ok, most of all! We live in a more moderate climate now, no more New York State!
12/27/21 12/29/20
View attachment 83981View attachment 83983
12/27/19
View attachment 83986
I have a 4-ton unit for a 3000sqft house that is at least based on AC performance during the hottest days of the summer properly sized. Nice long run times capable of keeping 68F when it's 95F outside with 50% humidity and the system runs 18 out of 24 hours during the hottest days. Run times for heat even when it's 15F outside are only about 15 mins where they were close to 45 mins during the middle of the day in the summer.
My last heat pump, the average life of the motor capacitors was about 3-4 years. I do not know if it was due to the extra use, starting in cold weather or just poor quality of capacitors. They are cheap so I changed them my self every 2 years and kept a spare. Added benefit I changed on nice day in the spring, not in a dark freezing rain. But for most consumers, you will have a service call that costs several hundred dollars every few years. Additionally I had to change the condenser fan motor and replace a fan blades due to Ice damage and all the extra running, I shudder to think what that service call would cost. . My AC only units last many more years. Current one is 8 years old, I think I will change it this spring. YMMV
No, not read manually
Pretty good observation by you though! I never thought about the time difference or why.
Not hardly , in 1990 heat pumps realistically weren’t even rated that cold, it’s only in the last 10 that EFFECTIVE below zero heat pumps have existed and anything below COP=2.5 is going to be loads more expensive than natural gas.
Also The temperature out of my vents is 10-15F lower than at the source, would feel rather breezy stuffing 85F “heat” through the vent when it discharges at 75F or lower
An interesting data point. I ran both the mini-split heat pump and NG furnace (baseboard water heat) in my Milford, PA home during December. Ran the heat pump only while I (solo) was there (about 2 weeks) and used 440KWH worth of powa! Total cost including taxes, state and local fees, assessments, connection charges and so on, 25c per KWH.
I did not expect that much electrical use. Considering that I keep the place at 60 when not there, only run the heat pump when there, and work from 7AM to 10PM and the hot water is NG.
December was mild for the area. Conclusion: NG is MUCH CHEAPER, per BTU.
I did not expect that much electrical use. Considering that I keep the place at 60 when not there, only run the heat pump when there, and work from 7AM to 10PM and the hot water is NG.
December was mild for the area. Conclusion: NG is MUCH CHEAPER, per BTU.
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