Michelin Super Sport and PS2 - terrible traction

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Originally Posted By: LotI
So you've got USED...MISMATCHED...DISSIMILAR tires on the car and are complaining that they don't work?

Based on your previous posts you drive fast...And you're asking for advice on an oil-related forum?

WOW!!!??


THIS!

Mismatched and 5 year old sort of boutique performance summer tires.......
That'll end well
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You almost sound like the reason the Pilot Sport A/S 3's were created
Which BTW, might be much better suited for you
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Tirerack
 
Czolem!

The age of the tires and the way they were stored may be the answer to your woes. I know that second hand tires are quite popular in home country but with powerful cars one should not try to save too much.
If you want traction you need to buy new, recently made (that is touchy part but 0-4 years old, the fresher the better) tires.
Continental ContiSportContact 5
Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymetric 2
Dunlop Sport Maxx RT
Michelin Pilot Sport 3
Michelin Pilot Super Sport
All should provide comparable performance. Some will last longer, some will be quieter, some will be better on dry, some on wet but for performance difference one will need test track and instrumented tests.

Powodzenia!

Krzys
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
What you need is a brand new set of Michelin Pilot Super Sports or Pilot Sport Cups all around, ideally wider than stock.


The Sport Cups, although an AMAZING tire as far as warm, dry traction and handling goes, are NOT the tires for a 'frugal', or 'on a budget' person's daily driven ride, even with 500 rwhp, and might even be dangerous in monsoon/standing water conditions.

That being said, IF I had the coin for an all out street driven, 'built' Vette, the non-run flat Cups would be the donuts on it!!
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One little side thought:

I am aware that pavement plays a large role in traction.

I am also aware that some tread compounds behave differently depending on the pavement - and that you can get completely different results depending on the pavement. I have seen the rank order change because tires were tested on different surfaces.

I wonder how much that might be playing a role in this case.
 
Originally Posted By: KitaCam
The treads of some all-season tires are not so much designed for snow as much as their rubber compound is formulated for all-temperatures.


Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
One little side thought:

I am aware that pavement plays a large role in traction.

I am also aware that some tread compounds behave differently depending on the pavement - and that you can get completely different results depending on the pavement. I have seen the rank order change because tires were tested on different surfaces.

I wonder how much that might be playing a role in this case.


Well, I can attest to the effect of tread design on road surfaces...The Ventus V4 ES tires don't drone like those of treads on passing pickup trucks, but the tires' compound generates a white-noise sound on the shell-embedded tan concrete road surfaces very prevalent here in Florida that TOTALLY disappears on asphalt/Tarmac surfaces, whether the undercoat of roadways still under construction or roadways finished with the black stuff....

Whether there's any correlation between that 'gripping' sound and actual traction, I can't say...but they do have great grip on all surfaces and conditions.
 
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Since they are summer tires, it is quite possible that they have been heat-cycled many times during hard driving.

The rubber may have turned hard, which is why you are experiencing those symptoms.
 
Originally Posted By: KitaCam
Whether there's any correlation between that 'gripping' sound and actual traction, I can't say...but they do have great grip on all surfaces and conditions.

Tire noise actually comes mostly from air being squeezed into and out of the grooves in the tread.

That noise is then reduced (or not) by the rubber, the carcass of the tire, and the car itself (suspension bushings, sound deadening, etc.).
 
Thanks d000d....I tried to distinguish between the "drone" tone and the "grinding white noise" that I at least associate with the rubber compound and not the air whistling through the tread grooves....

I don't know if I've succeeded at that though.
 
I can try to put different pair of Michelin PS2 265/40/18 as the rear tires. They are newer (2012 and 5mm instead of 2009 4,5-5mm). I doubt if it helps.
It is almost impossible to get Super sports 265/40/18 in my place. From what I checked there are no sport cups offered in this size.

The impression from driving with PS2 is quite strange. I usually got good traction while cornering or accelerating from higher speeds but about 4000-6000 RPM on the first gear after the start the back totally loses control and the traction control cannot handle with that. On winter tires it was almost impossible to loose traction even if the traction control wouldn't allowed the wheels to slip.
 
Originally Posted By: MercedesAMG_Pola
On winter tires it was almost impossible to loose traction even if the traction control wouldn't allowed the wheels to slip.

This actually confirms what everyone was saying in this thread. Winter tires are made of a different rubber compound which is very soft and therefore sticky. The PS2s that you have on there now must have hardened due to age or heat cycling, and therefore are not sticky anymore.

Putting slightly newer PS2s (from 2012) is no guarantee of success, since you have no way of knowing how they've been treated/stored, etc. The correct thing to do is to buy brand new ones.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: MercedesAMG_Pola
On winter tires it was almost impossible to loose traction even if the traction control wouldn't allowed the wheels to slip.

This actually confirms what everyone was saying in this thread. Winter tires are made of a different rubber compound which is very soft and therefore sticky. The PS2s that you have on there now must have hardened due to age or heat cycling, and therefore are not sticky anymore.

Putting slightly newer PS2s (from 2012) is no guarantee of success, since you have no way of knowing how they've been treated/stored, etc. The correct thing to do is to buy brand new ones.

I endorse this post in its entirety. :]
 
Thanks. However, this is the first time I put used tires on my car and the raeason is I prefer to test how they perform and throw them out when I am not happy with them rather than paying 8 time more for the new ones without any guarantee that the new set will perform better. Surely you are right and there is also a warranty for tires but I am pretty sure I won't be able to justify that I should get the money back.
What I am afraid is that I all Michelins PS2 might have similar problem or all the summer tires may perform simillary. Since I can not buy sport cups on any semi slicks in 245/45 or 260/40 I would like to stay with used tires and change them more frequently. You mentioned that heat cycling and temperature can make the tires harder. I drive pretty hard and if the 2012 tires can became hard after 1-2 summers I would definietely buy so expensive and short lasting tires to my car. I am driving hard also on the winter tires and haven't noticed any significant signs of hardening or deforming.

I am checking how hard current PS2 with the other tires and can not say that PS2 are anyway harder than the others.

I am pretty grateful about all your insights and it is very helpfull. Sometimes I can disagree or ask just to learn even more.
 
Originally Posted By: MercedesAMG_Pola
Hello,

I switched from my winter Dunlops Wintersports to the summer tires. I take used Michelins from my friend. I put 245/45/18 Michelin Super Sport in the front and 265/40/18 Michelin Pilot Sport 2 in the rear. I have one conclusion: TERRIBLE TRACTION! Have you ever noticed something simillar with Michelins? When the tires are cold there is almost no traction at all. Pushing gas pedal to the 3/4 position is like dancing on ice. I must admitt when the tires are very very hot the traction is better, especially cornerning. I can do quite sharp cornerns doing 170km/h but starting and braking is the complete disaster. Hard braking turns ABS on. Is it normal for them?

The Michelins seems to be very solid and hard to band on the corners. On the other hand it causes terrible slides when I am pushing gas pedal on the corner. It drives me completely furious because for example I want to accelerate rapidly when I the tires are not hot or the weather is colder and I simply can't. Traction control turns on but I am still sliding from the right to the left.

I consider switching to Conti ContactSport 2 with N0 homologation. I am thinking also about Falken Azenis. I looking for the sticky soft tires. The car has 500HP with rear wheel drive so i think I need the traction like oxygen to live:)

Later I can add the video showing what is going on.


Question:

Why did you miss-match tires?

And yes, summer rubber needs to be warm.

I have the Super Sport's on my M5 and they are incredible, they stick like epoxy even in the wet but yes, when cold, traction of course suffers.
 
Originally Posted By: KitaCam
The treads of some all-season tires are not so much designed for snow as much as their rubber compound is formulated for all-temperatures.


At the risk of raising ire of quoting myself...

There are Ultra High Performance All-Season tires (Hankook Ventus is one such model) that are designed to perform in all temps...though they aren't very ultra-high-performing in snow, they don't get brick-hard in cold temps...
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: KitaCam
Originally Posted By: KitaCam
The treads of some all-season tires are not so much designed for snow as much as their rubber compound is formulated for all-temperatures.


At the risk of raising ire of quoting myself...

There are Ultra High Performance All-Season tires (Hankook Ventus is one such model) that are designed to perform in all temps...though they aren't very ultra-high-performing in snow, they don't get brick-hard in cold temps...

lol UHP All-Season in snow:) is that a joke?
 
Originally Posted By: KitaCam
Originally Posted By: KitaCam
The treads of some all-season tires are not so much designed for snow as much as their rubber compound is formulated for all-temperatures.


At the risk of raising ire of quoting myself...

There are Ultra High Performance All-Season tires (Hankook Ventus is one such model) that are designed to perform in all temps...though they aren't very ultra-high-performing in snow, they don't get brick-hard in cold temps...

There was the Pirelli PZero Nero M+S that was available in the US. I bought a set to replace the OEM Bridgetstone Potenza RE92 tires on my WRX - they were made in Germany. They were pretty good in dry conditions. However, the tread pattern was identical to the regular PZero Nero summer tires. No siping at all. I actually drove those during a snowstorm and made it out alive, but it was hardly a good tire for snow.

I sent email to Pirelli USA and asked about what made them suitable as all-seasons and for light snow besides maybe different rubber. I was told that the carcass was designed to present a smaller contact patch and thus higher pressure.

Eventually Pirelli replaced them with all-seasons that had sipes. It's still on the market - the PZero Nero All Season. Still - those only start at 17" sizes.
 
Originally Posted By: KitaCam
Originally Posted By: KitaCam
The treads of some all-season tires are not so much designed for snow as much as their rubber compound is formulated for all-temperatures.


At the risk of raising ire of quoting myself...

There are Ultra High Performance All-Season tires (Hankook Ventus is one such model) that are designed to perform in all temps...though they aren't very ultra-high-performing in snow, they don't get brick-hard in cold temps...


The Michelin's don't get brick hard either (I drove on mine until November... in Canada), they just don't have their "epoxy" traction when it is particularly cool out. That doesn't mean they are scary to drive on (they are still stickier than my Bridgestone Blizzak's by a HUGE margin on cold or wet pavement even when cold), they just aren't "OMG these things stick like drag slicks!" when they aren't hot.

There's no way an "all season" UHP is going to hold a candle to a tire that is essentially one step down from full-on race rubber.

Here's TireRack's take:

Ventus V4 UHP A/S:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?...um=255VR6H105XL
Dry: 6.82
Wet: 5.96

Pilot Super Sport:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Pilot+Super+Sport
Dry: 9.6
Wet: 9.1

And it also won the Max Performance Summer category:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=174
Quote:
Conclusion: Still king of the hill in the Max Performance Summer category
 
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