How many of you have driven the ZF 6-speed Adaptive Learning A/T??
Manual transmission "snobs"?
- Thread starter LouDawg
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My 97 honda was great but like everyone else it sucked in traffic. For my AT i just give her alittle tender loving care and hope it lasts.
Sprintman,
Based on what I'm reading, the obvious answer to that question would be: none.
AFAIK, it's not available here in any type of average joe car. When I last bought new cars (2004), of all the cars I looked at only the upper end Jaguars and BMW's had the ZF six speed.
Pity, as it is a marvelous piece of machinery. After owning the ZF, you couldn't give me a car with a manual tranny. I anticipate getting a Pontiac G8 (Commodore)when it becomes available here; I hope the new GM 6L60 auto is as good as the ZF.
New Commodore is streets ahead of the old model. As Bob Lutz said on driving it "were getting better in America but your still way way ahead" New Camaro will be based on it too. Still surprised no ZF 6-spedd A/T available in everyday cars. We are lucky I guess.
I am not familiar with that transmission. However, when the Volkswagen Direct-Shift Gearbox (DSG) was introduced, more than one review rated it as better than the top BMW transmission then available.
And unless you live in a CARB state, you can buy a brand-new "2006" Jetta TDI with the 6-speed DSG tranny right now, for about $25k or less.
"How many of you have driven the ZF 6-speed Adaptive Learning A/T??"
The one below ? Do you get a sharp stick to poke yourself with too ?
http://www.thelurch.com/tsbs.htm
The one below ? Do you get a sharp stick to poke yourself with too ?
http://www.thelurch.com/tsbs.htm
JHZR2
Staff member
Quote:
Why do so many car and driving enthusiasts seem to have such low regard (sometimes darn near hostility) for automatic transmissions and A/T owners?
A. Is it because A/T's are typically less reliable?
B. Is it because M/T's are associated with higher performance?
C. Is it because A/T's are "boring"?
D. Is it because M/T's are more "fun" to drive?
E. Is it because A/T's fuel economy is typically lower?
F. Is it because A/T's are overly and unnecessarily complicated?
G. Is it because A/T's cost too much to fix or replace?
H. Is it because A/T drivers are perceived as being unsophisticated?
I. Some combination of the above?
J. Something else?
Just curious...I've always wondered. I can drive a manual tranny, but my wife can't. Plus they're getting harder and harder to get in the right combinations and numbers of the types of vehicles we can get, so we just went with A/Ts.
A,C,E,F,G,H,I.
An MT that is tough to drive in traffic is just a poorly designed system. My E30 BMW is a joy to drive in traffic, and Ive done it more times than I care to count in DC traffic. Ive also driven others, like my fiancee's intergra that are not.
I dont like the complexity, the dirtiness of the job in changing the fluid and filter, the lack of connection to the mechanics of the vehicle's operation in daily use.
I particluarly don't like others' not using MT cars. It is SOOOOO easy to see the folks that have NEVER driven an MT car - it is clear that they have zero sense of physics, just by virtue of their ability to stomp on the go pedal and zoom off. Often idiots behind me come suprisingly close as I gently leave a stoplight, because they just stomp... They do this when I drive AT or MT vehicles, because they are idiots with poor driving skills... I guess that is why I beat EPA fuel economy numbers on all our cars, while most people are so poor at driving that the EPA had to derate their nmbers by 10% a year or two ago so that they are more "realistic". A little bit of intelligence regarding engine operation and momentum, easily learned by correctly driving a stickshift, is all that it really takes.
Lately, ATs have gotten good enough to get equal or better MPG as MT cars. However, IMO, one can still achieve superior MPG with a tiny bit of thought and pre-planned shifting. I still would rather have an MT at 300k miles, than an AT. dont think the actual costs are really different though over the lifecycle... a $1500 rebuild at 200k miles is the equivalent of two $750 clutch jobs at 100k and 200k. Id bet that such an interval is about common.
JMH
If you know how to use an AT you can get good gas mileage in those too. I'm not sure how much MPG your fiance gets in her Integra but I get between 30-36mpg, depending on the weather
That's with an AT, also. If I tried hard enough I bet I could get close to 40mpg.
Guy here at work just took delivery of a Ford Fairmont Ghia with the ZF 6-speed A/T. No manual is as good as this period. I want one!
I agree with TallPaul's reasoning. The MT makes the driver an integral part of the machine in a way that the AT does not. It makes driving more like driving and less like riding. On the other hand, I suppose that same reason may be exactly why some prefer automatics. I don't mind the MT in heavy, slow traffic. I don't particularly LIKE it in that situation, but it's not that bad.
Also, the schoolteacher in me cannot let pass the notion that the root word of "manual" is "man." "Manual" derives from the Latin word for "hand," as does "manufacture." The word "man" derives from the German "Mensch." The two words are totally unrelated. (Call me a humorless dork, but I just wanted to clarify that.)
Also, the schoolteacher in me cannot let pass the notion that the root word of "manual" is "man." "Manual" derives from the Latin word for "hand," as does "manufacture." The word "man" derives from the German "Mensch." The two words are totally unrelated. (Call me a humorless dork, but I just wanted to clarify that.)
I am a Manual Transmission snob, at least in the sense that I vastly prefer them.
I guess I am also guilty of hating the AT drivers, or at least I am appalled by the "I never learned how to drive so i treat this vehicle like a couch on wheels" crowd. I am filled with amazement when i see these folks tapping their brakes briefly while driving on the highway. If i want a tad of deceleration I back off the throttle. If I want more, I downshift. If I need to slow down quickly, or stop I use my brakes.
Like a number of other posters for me it is just about control and connection to the driving experience. I also hate soft rides that hide sensory information from the road, heavily assisted power steering, seats without lateral support, cruise control and other features embraced by the blue rinse set.
I guess I am also guilty of hating the AT drivers, or at least I am appalled by the "I never learned how to drive so i treat this vehicle like a couch on wheels" crowd. I am filled with amazement when i see these folks tapping their brakes briefly while driving on the highway. If i want a tad of deceleration I back off the throttle. If I want more, I downshift. If I need to slow down quickly, or stop I use my brakes.
Like a number of other posters for me it is just about control and connection to the driving experience. I also hate soft rides that hide sensory information from the road, heavily assisted power steering, seats without lateral support, cruise control and other features embraced by the blue rinse set.
JHZR2
Staff member
+1 Great points, just what I was trying to say, only more eloquent!
JMH
JHZR2
Staff member
Quote:
If you know how to use an AT you can get good gas mileage in those too. I'm not sure how much MPG your fiance gets in her Integra but I get between 30-36mpg, depending on the weatherThat's with an AT, also. If I tried hard enough I bet I could get close to 40mpg.
I didnt say that you couldnt... especially with modern 4sp and better ATs with enhanced logic, etc. Some even surpass their MT equipped brothers and sisters, though thatmay also be because of ratios chosen.
We get 35-37 on highway only trips in the integra (184k miles at this point). We rarely use it for that, as it is not a good highway car because of cruising RPM and noise, plus the fact that myu much larger saab 9-3 gets better fuel economy.
It is a great car for commuting and going around to the store, etc., by virtue of the hatch. My point in my previous post was that while my E30 BMW is geared such that it is easy to drive MT in heavy traffic, and I dont really care much, the chosen gearing in the integra is lousy for such an application, and thus is fatiguing. Its just the choice of ratios and how the whole package matches up that determines how loust an MT is in traffic.
JMH
JHZR2
Staff member
In college I was on the crew team. We use 50'+ trailers, as eight-man boats are very long. In my senior year, the coach was looking for a new truck, and I asked why he wasnt looking at MT-equipped trucks. His claim was that the clutches don't last long at all in these applications.
I dont know how true it is (heavy trucks are mostly MT afterall), or how driving skill dependent it might be, but that is what I had heard...
I also have noted when speccing out trucks from time to time that the AT equipped ones seem to have higher towing ratings. Again, perhaps not always though...
JMH
I dont know how true it is (heavy trucks are mostly MT afterall), or how driving skill dependent it might be, but that is what I had heard...
I also have noted when speccing out trucks from time to time that the AT equipped ones seem to have higher towing ratings. Again, perhaps not always though...
JMH
JHZR2: i don't have a problem shifting my manual E30 in traffic, either. not that there is any heavy daily traffic to speak of around here, but when i encounter it when there is a traffic accident or something like that, it doesn't bother me. it's a great car, not for everybody, but people who still drive them seem to REALLY enjoy driving and tinkering with them.
to me the biggest difference between driving a manual is that i am thinking ahead, looking at traffic conditions, traffic signals ahead, changes in elevation, sharpness of curves, etc. I am really paying attention to what is going on, deciding what gear to be into and what RPM level to shift. It is just not the same driving experience as driving an automatic transmission.
I can understand why most people don't want to do this. Most people don't really like driving, if you look at how they maintain their cars and the way they behave on the road. The interaction between man and machine is just not there.
That's fine with me though, if others aren't interested in it. I just wish they would hang up the cell phone, stop trying to eat a taco, and put away the mascara... while going 85 in a big SUV. You can't get away with that with a manual tranny.
True story, when most people get in my car for the first time they eventually say with a puzzled look, "Why do you want to drive this old car? The engine noise is too loud and there's not even any cup holders in this car!".
to me the biggest difference between driving a manual is that i am thinking ahead, looking at traffic conditions, traffic signals ahead, changes in elevation, sharpness of curves, etc. I am really paying attention to what is going on, deciding what gear to be into and what RPM level to shift. It is just not the same driving experience as driving an automatic transmission.
I can understand why most people don't want to do this. Most people don't really like driving, if you look at how they maintain their cars and the way they behave on the road. The interaction between man and machine is just not there.
That's fine with me though, if others aren't interested in it. I just wish they would hang up the cell phone, stop trying to eat a taco, and put away the mascara... while going 85 in a big SUV. You can't get away with that with a manual tranny.
True story, when most people get in my car for the first time they eventually say with a puzzled look, "Why do you want to drive this old car? The engine noise is too loud and there's not even any cup holders in this car!".
I have one automatic and one manual car. I like the manual for its control on winding hilly roads, lower long term maintenance costs and on a sporty car, it's what I want. On the other hand, I have tried to drive a manual in San Francisco but I will never do it again.
All this m/t talk makes me miss driving one. Wish I had one now.
"On the other hand, I have tried to drive a manual in San Francisco but I will never do it again."
In my 3/4 ton truck with a stick San Francisco was fine that last time that I was there. I wondered which city street maintenance department 'won', the one that dug large squares into the roads about 1 to 2 inches deep, or the one that put large squares on the raods about 1 to 2 inches high. The excursion out to Pt Reyes was more work, it was pretty, but my wife wouldn't teel me what it looked like on the beaches as she wouldn't look out that side of the truck :^)
In my 3/4 ton truck with a stick San Francisco was fine that last time that I was there. I wondered which city street maintenance department 'won', the one that dug large squares into the roads about 1 to 2 inches deep, or the one that put large squares on the raods about 1 to 2 inches high. The excursion out to Pt Reyes was more work, it was pretty, but my wife wouldn't teel me what it looked like on the beaches as she wouldn't look out that side of the truck :^)
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