LSJR Boutique vs OTS shootout

[mr_boring]

LSJR come out come out wherever you are....View attachment 313727
100% BITOG copyright kosher

I appreciate your business!

My AFTER BLACK FRIDAY and TO HECK WITH CYBER WEEK sale might be over BUT we are kicking of our CRUISING INTO CHRISTMAS WITH A NOD TO HANUKKA sale starting now.

Pitchfork and torch bundles, the more you buy, the cheaper I make 'em!

 

[ZeeOSix]

Correct, but it does NOT apply to oil filters. @ZeeOSix explained it way better than I ever could.

LSJr needs to go visit an ISO test lab where oil filters are tested so he can learn what really happens when oil filters load up with debris. He's caught up in the misconception (like many others) thinking that oil filters behave like air filters as they load up. If anyone want's some details, here's a few links below that show more info - read some past where these links jump into the thread. This subject has been discussed in various oil filter threads for at least 10 years, yet people still have the misconception that oil filters get more efficient as they load up. I have never seen one ISO test that shows otherwise.

Post in thread 'Would you all like to see ISO 4548-12 Oil Filter Lab Testing Comparison, Efficiency & Capacity, Pressure vs Flow, Bubble Point, and Burst?'

Jun 4, 2021

Is there anyway to report how efficiency changed with time?

Andrew might have data to plot the efficiency vs test run time ... if so, that might show the "hockey stick" shapped curve where the efficiency starts out high and slowly decreases as the filter loads up (delta-p causes already captuired debris to beak loose), and then suddenly get more efficient as the media becomes nearly fully clogged before the bypass valve would open.

• ZeeOSix

• 

Post in thread 'Lake Speed Jr Visits Donaldson Company to Get Information About Air Filters'

Nov 30, 2025

Could it be that the bypass would be letting some stuff through?

Only if the bypass valve is faulty and leaking, or like with the ruffled and warped leaf spring to end cap metal-to-metal "seal" leaking dirty oil past the media. This discussion is based on the assumption that there is no internal leakage of dirty oil around the media.

If there is no internal leakage like that, then what you are seeing is the media becoming less efficient as it loads up with debris. Did you open the link given in post 39 to Ascent's test results? It shows how the AC Delco filter's efficiency...

• ZeeOSix

 

[TiGeo]

I agree and this has been my feeling about boutique oils for years. I’m a bit shocked when I see people dumping HPL at 5,000 miles in the “Latest Oil Change Thread” because the off the shelf oils can achieve that just fine. I understand the emphasis for people on ring cleanliness, but Castrol EDGE Extended Performance, Mobil 1 ESP/EP, and Pennzoil Ultra Platinum are pretty stout products.

I mean if I can do nearly 10K with track use included on a wound-out turbo VW the average BITOGer with a '99 Camry bee-boppin' to the store can run HPL for that...at least.

 

[cheesepuffs2]

I mean if I can do nearly 10K with track use included on a wound-out turbo VW the average BITOGer with a '99 Camry bee-boppin' to the store can run HPL for that...at least.

Agreed. Or at least if they aren’t going to run long intervals, save your pennies and just grab a jug of Mobil 1 instead. The hype around boutique oils here is certainly interesting since we are an oil forum after all, but that same hype has costed a lot of members here a lot of cumulative dollars for little to no reason imo. And I don’t think being educated about our oil choices means to over-do it for no reason either.

 

[TiGeo]

Agreed. Or at least if they aren’t going to run long intervals, save your pennies and just grab a jug of Mobil 1 instead. The hype around boutique oils here is certainly interesting since we are an oil forum after all, but that same hype has costed a lot of members here a lot of cumulative dollars for little to no reason imo. And I don’t think being educated about our oil choices means to over-do it for no reason either.

The higher-priced oils just need a OCI to match to get the value. On a mundane use vehicle, you may be able to 20K on some of these higher-end oils but people are just too freaked out to do it which puts you back to...just run normal crap then and do 5K and fugetaboutit. Seems like for normal OCIs, Valvoline Restore and Protect should be the go-to for everyone at this point that isn't driving a Euro vehicle or that have the heavy-duty use case, track, etc.

 

[Astro14]

The higher-priced oils just need a OCI to match to get the value. On a mundane use vehicle, you may be able to 20K on some of these higher-end oils but people are just too freaked out to do it which puts you back to...just run normal crap then and do 5K and fugetaboutit. Seems like for normal OCIs, Valvoline Restore and Protect Pennzoil Ultra Platinum should be the go-to for everyone at this point that isn't driving a Euro vehicle or that have the heavy-duty use case, track, etc.

Fixed it for ya’…

 

[FranklinJL]

I mentioned awhile back that I took a look at the rotating assembly of my S85. Years of doom and gloom from Internet 'experts' had me curious. It has been on a steady diet of Redline 10w60, since early in it's life. It sees redline every time it's driven, after it reaches full operating temp.

Anyway, back to the rotating assembly. The bearings and journals were all perfect, so it went back together with the original bearings.

We also have a couple other forced induction engines that are running Redline oil.

So in light of this test, I'm concerned my good results aren't possible. Not to mention what I've seen in extreme racing applications using Redline...

In my car club, the M5 dudes swear by 5w50 redline. Ive seen the rod bearings/bottom end of those engines run on redline for some 70k miles, they look fantastic. If I had a tuned up M5, thats what I would run......seen it with my own eyes......One guy has 127k on his F90 running redline since new

 

[edyvw]

I mentioned awhile back that I took a look at the rotating assembly of my S85. Years of doom and gloom from Internet 'experts' had me curious. It has been on a steady diet of Redline 10w60, since early in it's life. It sees redline every time it's driven, after it reaches full operating temp.

Anyway, back to the rotating assembly. The bearings and journals were all perfect, so it went back together with the original bearings.

We also have a couple other forced induction engines that are running Redline oil.

So in light of this test, I'm concerned my good results aren't possible. Not to mention what I've seen in extreme racing applications using Redline...

There is no doubt big contributor to rod bearing replacement is pushing those engines cold. Bunch of lease vehicles, when owner who knows what he/she is doing, damage is done.
But if I had S54/65/85, only Redline or Amsoil. HPL doesn’t make 10W60 as far as I know.

 

[Astro14]

There is no doubt big contributor to rod bearing replacement is pushing those engines cold. Bunch of lease vehicles, when owner who knows what he/she is doing, damage is done.
But if I had S54/65/85, only Redline or Amsoil. HPL doesn’t make 10W60 as far as I know.

Have you asked HPL?

Often, they will have a product that isn’t on the web page - remember, they sell to big customers, the consumer business is a tiny percentage of the total, so they may have something you want, but they just don’t have it listed on the consumer-facing site.

For example, two years ago, I needed a 75W manual transmission oil - they didn’t have it listed, but it was already made and available. Now, it’s on the site.

 

[edyvw]

Have you asked HPL?

Often, they will have a product that isn’t on the web page - remember, they sell to big customers, the consumer business is a tiny percentage of the total, so they may have something you want, but they just don’t have it listed on the consumer-facing site.

For example, two years ago, I needed a 75W manual transmission oil - they didn’t have it listed, but it was already made and available. Now, it’s on the site.

I was looking for it as member on bimmerfest was asking me to recommend oil for S65. I told him to go Amsoil.
HPL like you said doesn’t have on web site and member wanted to buy it now.
F it was for me I would ask Dave. That being said, I will check with him.

 

[kschachn]

And all this time i was thinking ranking oil solely on hths was using a single data point and ignoring all the rest.
Because, it is?

Why would you do that? That would not be a proper decision on oil choice. It’s an important one, but you misconstrue people’s opinions when you think that’s the only one.

I see posters making these sweeping but incorrect statements when they think they’ve got a point to be made. This thread is littered with those statements.

 

[02SE]

In my car club, the M5 dudes swear by 5w50 redline. Ive seen the rod bearings/bottom end of those engines run on redline for some 70k miles, they look fantastic. If I had a tuned up M5, thats what I would run......seen it with my own eyes......One guy has 127k on his F90 running redline since new

Ours is a 2010 E63 M6 6-speed. We bought it new with European delivery. It had over 70k miles when I inspected the bottom end.

 

[Hohn]

No Vll dominated as expected. Not sure why the TEOST was bad.

No VII has a pretty stout additive pack. If this is a D1G2 add pack with no top treat, it should ace the TEOST, I’d think.

I wonder how the PCMO would have done on TEOST? Perhaps better solubility with the combination or Ester, AN, and Grp III means excellent TEOST?

 

[Hohn]

I really don't like that he used Teost with these oils. It's well known here that Teost is falling out of favor and gives false high results with oils that have high amounts of moly-based additives. The Teost results scale pretty much linearly with the concentration of moly. However, the 3 oils that performed worst in Teost have no turbo deposit/coking issues in the real world. HPL is used in fleets of turbo engines going 15k mile intervals or longer for 200k+ miles in high heat climates with no turbo issues at all. I also don't like that he used total wear metals as a comparison when there's only a 1-2 ppm between a lot of them on individual metals. They're all within the margin of error of RDE and ICP. I consider all of those results to be the same within MoE. There's no comparison to be made there. Only running the engine for 2 hours isn't going to tell much either.

I was asking myself how these test results would be different if the oils had run 20 or 200 hours instead of 2.

I strongly suspect that the HPL’s superior oxidation and shear resistance would show superior area under the curve (total performance across drain interval), vs just a fresh-oil snapshot.

If you watch the video, you’ll notice many of the oils drained out were clearly quite cooked in just two hours but the HPL was much closer to the fresh oil color.

 

[Big O Dave]

HPL, Driven and RL would not meet the 30mg threshold for TEOST. The RL TEOST results are similar to what Amsoil found. Actually RL results are off the charts bad. Would you run that oil in a turbo? I don't know. I know the TEOST isn't everything, but it is a test.

"The maximum mg limit for a TEOST test (Thermo-Oxidation Engine Oil Simulation Test) varies by specification, but common limits are around 30-35 mg for modern API/ILSAC oils (like GF-5), while older specs might allow up to 60 mg, and newer ones push for even lower deposits (like 25 mg) to protect turbos"



View attachment 313546

This is CLASSIC!

I know the TEOST isn't everything, but it is a test.

 

[Big O Dave]

Oil	PDS KV100	VOA KV100	used oil analysis KV100	HTHS	Oil temp rank	Torque rank	Test order	Iron ppm
Redline 5W-30	11.9cSt	12.0cSt	11.9cSt	3.7cP	8	8	1	7
Pennzoil 5W-30	10.3cSt	10.2cSt	10.1cSt	~3.1cP (estimate)	7	7	2	6
Ravenol 5W-30	11.1cSt	10.7cSt	10.8cSt	3.25cP	6	4	3	5
LiquiMoly 5W-30	10.3cSt	10.9cSt	10.6cSt	2.9cP	2	2	4	4
HPL NVII 5W-30	10.54cSt	10.1cSt	10.1cSt	3.4cP	5	5	5	5
Mobil 1 Truck and SUV 5W-30	10.0cSt	10.4cSt	10.0cSt	~3.1cP (estimate)	4	3	6	5
Driven 5W-30	11.9cSt	11.3cSt	11.7cSt	3.5cP	1	1	7	4
AMSOIL 5W-30	10.3cSt	10.2cSt	10.0cSt	3.11cP	3	6	8	5

Decided to put this in a table. I don't follow the "total wear metals" thing, so I've just included iron here. Oils are ranked in terms of order tested, you can see some correlation with both:
1. Iron PPM, is slightly higher for the first two oils tested, then stabilizes.
2. Oil temp, the first three oils all ran the hottest, the lower viscosity and higher shear LM oil deviates from that trend, as does the Driven LM30, but it tracks pretty well with test order.

Was nice to hear the engine has over 7,000 pulls on it, that was one of the questions I would have had if that information wasn't shared. One thing I am curious about is this special "designed to wear fast" camshaft from Comp, which they state can get results in 2hrs (the duration of these runs) vs 100. I'm thinking how that factors into the results relative to the test order. It was installed fresh at the beginning of the previous testing that was done, and it had 24hrs of run-time on it by the time it was done.

Interesting his commentary on the Ravenol DXG having "almost no VII" and yet it's clearly middle of the pack in KRL shear performance, which seems to undermine that claim. It doesn't do appreciably better than Mobil 1 in this respect, and worse than Pennzoil.

It's also interesting to see how KRL performance doesn't really align with the 2hr in service testing. The LM oil actually increased in viscosity via used oil analysis, while it sheared massively in the KRL.

In application, it would seem that the LM was actually (due to shear and HTHS) the lightest oil tested, and this has influenced both oil temperature and torque. The Driven racing oil, despite being the 2nd heaviest, and experiencing viscosity increase, produced the lowest oil temps (though was also the 2nd last oil tested) and most torque which I expect is due to additive package choices made (he notes it's based on SN chemistry as well, which is interesting in this context, though perhaps not influential).

I think that the best use of the LM Molygen 5W-30 is as a 0W-20 substitute. It shears down to that, anyway. Lake Speed, jr apparently applied that thinking when he ran 5W-30 in place of 0W-40 in the Wombat/Porsche. The 0W-40 shears down pretty quickly in that timing chain laden Porsche engine, so why not start with a shear stable 5W-30 that will remain in-grade?

 

[edyvw]

In my car club, the M5 dudes swear by 5w50 redline. Ive seen the rod bearings/bottom end of those engines run on redline for some 70k miles, they look fantastic. If I had a tuned up M5, thats what I would run......seen it with my own eyes......One guy has 127k on his F90 running redline since new

5W50 will definitely be sufficient. BMW recommended 10W60 because it shears very fast to 50. Redline, Amsoil, HPL etc. will stay in grade longer. Many OTS 10W60 will shear down into 40.
As for F90, they don't have issues that S54/65/85 had. It has a different set of issues.

 

[Hohn]

Oh and wear metals are really a statistical tie.

As must be the case for only a two hour test.

I mean, the only disparity you're likely to find is if you bought some entirely group I API SL oil from the dusty part of the truck stop aisle and included it in this test.

In this crowd of modern oils-- especially premium synthetics-- it's nearly impossible for any real difference to show in 2 hours.

While I appreciate all the effort Lake put into this, I'm concerned that people are going to be misinterpreting his findings. I wish he would have spent more time sort of disclaiming (putting an asterisk) on his results and explaining to people the limitations of the engine part of his testing.


Lake is a good guy, a straight shooter and honest. I trust him. I'm just not sure the less oily viewers will the take the video as he intends.

 

[4wd]

As must be the case for only a two hour test.

I mean, the only disparity you're likely to find is if you bought some entirely group I API SL oil from the dusty part of the truck stop aisle and included it in this test.

In this crowd of modern oils-- especially premium synthetics-- it's nearly impossible for any real difference to show in 2 hours.

While I appreciate all the effort Lake put into this, I'm concerned that people are going to be misinterpreting his findings. I wish he would have spent more time sort of disclaiming (putting an asterisk) on his results and explaining to people the limitations of the engine part of his testing.


Lake is a good guy, a straight shooter and from honest. I trust him. I'm just not sure the less oily viewers will draw the take the video as he intends.

Other than the higher shear of LM - most things landed as expected for the price point. The graph scale of his data looks like a Bill Dance fish photo

 

[Pablo]

As must be the case for only a two hour test.

I mean, the only disparity you're likely to find is if you bought some entirely group I API SL oil from the dusty part of the truck stop aisle and included it in this test.

In this crowd of modern oils-- especially premium synthetics-- it's nearly impossible for any real difference to show in 2 hours.

While I appreciate all the effort Lake put into this, I'm concerned that people are going to be misinterpreting his findings. I wish he would have spent more time sort of disclaiming (putting an asterisk) on his results and explaining to people the limitations of the engine part of his testing.


Lake is a good guy, a straight shooter and from honest. I trust him. I'm just not sure the less oily viewers will draw the take the video as he intends.

This is indeed the BITOG.................dare I say..................consensus?