HPL seems to design around ethanol use and prolonged service life. I suspect that guides their choices re: detergents and base oils. High TBN is still nice to have in that case.I'm genuinely curious why HPL uses so much Mg/Ca. TBN is sort of a relic. A lot of SA. Does it help keep engines cleaner?Does all that added detergent service a specific purpose?
Mobil 1 ESP is now using "Next Gen" Cleaning agents. AMSOIL Signature Series doesn't use as much Ca/Mg as HPL, yet keeps engines extremely clean including pistons.
Mobil 1 Advanced Clean has 70% less detergent than HPL yet can clean per XOM and is good for 20k miles (strong oxidation resistance).
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When he tested the different flavors of Mobil 1 Full Synthetic 0w40 sheared 10.6%, ESP x3 3%, C40 GT 3.9%, and Supercar 8%. FS and Supercar also went out of grade and ended up as a thick 30 weight. On the plus side FS had the best oxidation resistance out of the four.
Another interesting thing to see when he did his video on oil shearing and made those custom blends with different VII he tested Mobil 1 Full Synthetic 0w40 and it sheared 10.4%. Yeah itād be nice to see that test repeated a bunch to understand its error but those two results are at least similar (plus they were likely from different bottles so thatās adds batch to batch uncertainty)
I think you're right.
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I think it also depends on which HPL oil you are looking at (not surprisingly). The Super Car 0W-40/0W-20 oils (and I assume others with the same full-SAPS additive package) have ~920 magnesium, 2600 calcium. Ravenol SSL Euro had 20 magnesium, 2450 calcium, Mobil 1 FS pre-SP had 20 magnesium, 3,440 calcium, even higher than the HPL offerings.
KV100 isn't as relevant as HTHS. We were only given HTHS % shear for one Mobil 1 0w40 oil on that test. And it was better than all of the other products in that test (other than no-vii of course).
That is why I think it's dumb that he doesn't standardize. He throws random oils in each test so you can't compare directly. But it did extremely well.
You might be interested in this thread from a while back:
And another that notes, that, despite moly heavily influencing TEOST 33C performance, it had no impact on actual turbocharger deposits:
Thanks. I guess my takeaway is that these bench tests just arenāt anywhere near as good as full on engine testing with teardowns to measure performance. Just like with the general caution against additives, going with a blend that has a ātweakā or ātop treatā that might yield benefits in a lab test could have unexpected in-engine results, BOI and VGRA not withstanding. Iām probably drawing all the wrong conclusions as usual though.
Of course, I would assume they'd steer you differently depending if you tell them you're using nothing but pump gas vs. e85, methanol, etc. I doubt the guys running alcohol engines are going to look at their mid-saps products for that reason.
Great video for a hobby-ist like myself; clear explanations and commentary.
It is nice to see only a minimal amount of Lake Derangement Syndrome in the comments , as well. Although to some, any feasible testing regiment is not good enough and theyāll say ābut it didnāt include XYZā¦.testā.
I bet weāll see more Pennzoil Ultra Platinum discussion here after its mostly favorable showing in this test; it *seemed* to have fallen out of favor over the last few years here. HPL proves itās sheer resistance and ultra extended drain intervals, but if those attributes arenāt priorities for you, there are other choices in the test that perform well for half-ish the price.
It is nice to see only a minimal amount of Lake Derangement Syndrome in the comments , as well. Although to some, any feasible testing regiment is not good enough and theyāll say ābut it didnāt include XYZā¦.testā.
I bet weāll see more Pennzoil Ultra Platinum discussion here after its mostly favorable showing in this test; it *seemed* to have fallen out of favor over the last few years here. HPL proves itās sheer resistance and ultra extended drain intervals, but if those attributes arenāt priorities for you, there are other choices in the test that perform well for half-ish the price.
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Exactly, and this is somewhat similar to why used oil analysis aren't a proxy for tear-downs.
It was absolute Amsoil's signature so to speak until it became an API compliant oil. Very high Ca basic additives.
Funny one guy in the Amsoil dealer magazine recently commented on the upcoming reformulation: We don't want a compliant oil we want a performing oil!
When I did my last oil change, HPL tested (via @wwillson and @HPL Plant Manager...thank you!) my used oil with ~9.6K/3 track days/a bunch of autox's for HTHS. Not suprisingly, the HPL Euro 5W-40 starts at 4.0 cp and landed at 3.9 cp...basically unchanged. It's why it's a great choice for my use. This isn't going to be critical for those using their vehicles in a more "normal" usage. I would have never tried LM Molygen 5W-40 to do this, I'm sure it's ending value would have been much lower based on this recent LSJR testing and it likely starts lower (their PDS shows 3.5 the min-spec for a 502 oil).
It's a decent-ish control (using the same motor for each oil with a controlled flush in between) but I wish they'd use something a bit more modern/abusive.
It's also important to note that this entire engine (valvertain AND piston rings) was designed to wear a lot faster than normal, to accelerate wear testing. That's why I think it's especially silly to look at numerical differences in wear metals as the winning stat here. They're all greatly exaggerated compared to the real world. Scaled down for normal usage it's statistical noise.
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I also don't think we should just dismiss the difference, albeit a tiny one, in the sequence of oils tested and the iron ppm being higher for the first two, then "settling" on ~5ppm for the remainder of the oils. This also was mostly the case with oil temperature, it was higher for the earlier oils (see my table posted earlier).
Those detergents are not really what cleans. Those are mostly for longer drain interval. Which makes sense considering they dont shearI'm genuinely curious why HPL uses so much Mg/Ca. TBN is sort of a relic. A lot of SA. Does it help keep engines cleaner?
Mobil 1 ESP is now using "Next Gen Cleaning agents". Probably in other Mobil 1 lines too if I had to guess (Mobil 1 Advanced Clean?). AMSOIL Signature Series doesn't use as much Ca/Mg as HPL yet keeps engines extremely clean including pistons.
Mobil 1 Advanced Clean has 70% less detergent than HPL yet can clean per XOM and is good for 20k miles (strong oxidation resistance).
Agree. He REALLY could have chosen at least one Euro oil with MB 229.5x, Porsche A40, et al. to have some representation from that category. He should have asked us!
PAGING LSJR PAGING LSJR I (WE) KNOW YOU ARE READING THIS SO IF YOU ARE, PLEASE GIVE US A SIGN.Agree. He REALLY could have chosen at least one Euro oil with MB 229.5x, Porsche A40, et al. to have some representation from that category. He should have asked us!
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Lake speed going to find himself as the Lone Ranger of lubricity.
lake's the guy running Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 0w40 (for mopar applications) in his porsche. and yet he won't run Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5w40 in his SBC?!
application dictates chemistry my ass.
Mobil 1 Full Synthetic did shear down (assuming no fuel dilution, aren't you pleased @kschachn), but it was still within a 30 grade. Not sure what your VW specifically specs, but most of us would be happy staying in a 30 grade after 5000 miles, including two track days, a new turbo and stage 2+ tune!I understand the cost, and for me/others that are doing it, free from FCP which is about the only way using LM products makes sense b/c as you say, it's not cheap for a somewhat average product. So firstly, I'm not up on all this testing - it seems to me the two things that stood out were the shear test which it did poorly/matches my results when I used it (red circled data points in my table below). I also note the fan-fave Mobil 1 0W40 also returned a v. low ending viscosity but admittedly it's one data point and a dataset doesn't a data point make
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@edyvw has tracked with Mobil 1 Full Synthetic as well with good results. I think its solid, all-around performance is one reason it is so highly recommended.
Have you considered Motul X-Cess GEN2? It's on FCP Euro and a good offering. Or do you need VW 504?
Is it more reactions taking place; more heat from friction ābreaking inā, earlier in testing vs stabilizing after those first runs?
Iām not sure if Iām able to express properly the nuance you seem to be alluding to.
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