Larger Luxury Sedans

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
^^^that's unusual for the German suspensions as the typically tilt the tire hard as it turns.

I have always been very surprised at my tire wear as it remains very even and I get good tire life even at the track.

Perhaps the pressures were off or the alignment was screwed up or something. Publicity beaters take a whipping with all the different drivers wailing on them!

I blame the hugely front-biased weight distribution!

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
BMW doesn't do over $100k cars well, its not their specialty.

Gotta agree here. Even when BMW was still setting the standards for just about every market they competed in, their most expensive cars never seemed to get it done.

I still love the E38 7-Series, but I don't know of any 7-Series that was ever preferable to its Mercedes counterpart.

 

[d00df00d]

...preferable to most people, I mean.

 

[Y_K]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Dynamically, the Town Car is competitive with modern luxury cars in exactly one respect: It soaks up bumps reasonably well. Unfortunately, it still jiggles over some bumps because of its live rear axle, and it still permits a lot of excess body motion. Modern luxury cars can match or beat the Town Car's ride compliance while handling WAY better.

I run a towncar co and I could not agree more with this part of your dissertation.
Also, for a long commute it is not the most comfortable driver's seat. It is a bliss to be driven in one, I always enjoy a ride. For a long commute driver with a potential back issues I would look at a Volvo or an MB with optional Drivedynamic Seat.

Cannot endorse Chrysler 300, those simply fall apart too soon in our business, as Audi A8L do. Audi 6 was the most dependable Audi in my personal use. I had 2 of those with no major issues. My favorite in terms of comfort and aftertaste for a commute the OP described would be a Lexus LX though..

 

[MCompact]

What I liked about the E65 B7 was Alpina's uncanny ability to combine comfort with very respectable performance. But as I've said before, I really don't care for sedans much larger than the E90 3er.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I still love the E38 7-Series, but I don't know of any 7-Series that was ever preferable to its Mercedes counterpart.


I think the E38 is perhaps the most beautiful sedan ever penned. I'd own one in a heartbeat.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: shDK
You simply cannot compare the crysler 300 to any of those other cars mentioned. It is a terrible car to drive. Might be fast with the right engine but without even the slightest shadow of dynamics and the inside build quality is a joke.


Never driven one, have you. (That's not a question.)

Everyone has different standards. To each their own.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd

I think the E38 is perhaps the most beautiful sedan ever penned. I'd own one in a heartbeat.


A guy in the Louisville area has an Imola Red E38 740i Sport. Beautiful- and the sport package makes it even more fun to drive.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: shDK
You simply cannot compare the crysler 300 to any of those other cars mentioned. It is a terrible car to drive. Might be fast with the right engine but without even the slightest shadow of dynamics and the inside build quality is a joke.


Never driven one, have you. (That's not a question.)

Everyone has different standards. To each their own.


Yes. But when it is presented as though it is fact and without anything to back it up it is most likely simply regurgitated from the auto rags. So many folks assume a 300 means a V6 with some huge wheels on it. It's just like comparing a BMW 318 with a 335is. They sure do look similar, but that's about it. Almost anyone would acknowledge the rather large differences don't you think?

Despite the misconceptions, the 300 remains a hot seller, along with its stablemates the Charger and the Challenger. While that's not always indicative of quality it is an indication of consumer perceived value. All 3 feature an inherently stiff chassis (hydroformed) with the potential for very capable performance. And they remain EXTREMELY competitive when compared against ANY full size 4 door sedan or big 2 door at even a nearby price point.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: shDK
You simply cannot compare the crysler 300 to any of those other cars mentioned. It is a terrible car to drive. Might be fast with the right engine but without even the slightest shadow of dynamics and the inside build quality is a joke.


Never driven one, have you. (That's not a question.)

Everyone has different standards. To each their own.


Yes. But when it is presented as though it is fact and without anything to back it up it is most likely simply regurgitated from the auto rags. So many folks assume a 300 means a V6 with some huge wheels on it. It's just like comparing a BMW 318 with a 335is. They sure do look similar, but that's about it. Almost anyone would acknowledge the rather large differences don't you think?

Despite the misconceptions, the 300 remains a hot seller, along with its stablemates the Charger and the Challenger. While that's not always indicative of quality it is an indication of consumer perceived value. All 3 feature an inherently stiff chassis (hydroformed) with the potential for very capable performance. And they remain EXTREMELY competitive when compared against ANY full size 4 door sedan or big 2 door at even a nearby price point.


Well I think the critic is right. You compare an 318 to a 335. Well guess, what, standards discern that Id rather have my E30 318i than a new 335i. Why? Size, weight, dynamics, lifecycle cost. It is indeed the same car (if you went and bought the latest model of each - there probably is a 318i in europe) set up differently; just a different engine, wheels/tires and suspension. At the end of the day, most of that could be swapped, so it is all in just being an engine difference.

The difference here is that a 318 can still be an entertaining drive, even if on paper its numbers arent that great. A 300 V6 with big wheels isnt particularly appealing on any front, and will be less so 10+ years from now. But the latest 3er siblings are getting so big and flaccid that they are starting to turn into cars like the pedestrian 300, which might have a look or niche aspect that appeals to some, but isnt as good of a drive, and is losing in its ranking. But as critic said, different standards and to each their own.

If I were buying a large luxury sedan, Id probably go lexus. I see it as silly to think of some three ton beheamouth to be some kind of performance vehicle, and would want comfort, quiet and decent looks. The S-class does not do it for me, and the 7er just isnt all that appealing. So Id go for luxury at the best value, which IMO is the lexus.

 

[SteveSRT8]

I have never said (nor will I) that you cannot agree with anyone you want to.

Please note that I said NOTHING about the 318 being a bad driver. I simply said their driving dynamics were quite dissimilar. To imply that an engine swap and some tires are the difference is ludicrous over-simplification and somewhat disingenuous as well.

Sorry you missed the point. The original posters comment was not a relevant opinion, just a flat statement of fact. I only recommended the SRT8 as a valid competitor to the OP's list, not a ghetto model with big wheels. And it should be noted that the new Pentastar V6 with the 8 speed ZF slushbox (same trans as BMW!) is getting rave reviews for performance AND efficiency.

The first statement I made was IN AGREEMENT with Critic's statement about "to each his own". Sheesh...

 

[JHZR2]

I never said that people can or cannot agree either... i just concurred with Critic's comment.

I also didnt say that you claimed it was a bad driver, I was just giving an example (as someone with an old 318 and a new '35i vehicle) of how personal choices or "different standards" as critic put it, feeds my selections and decisions.

I get that when you say "yes", you are in agreement and didnt like the previous "fact" comment. But I disagree with other elements of the story youre putting together, thus my comments, primarily that because IMO the BMW is a better driver than a 300 will ever be, even if it is souped up with a lot of power and mods.

So besides tires, suspension and engine, what exactly is different in a same model 318i vs 335i? Do the door panels change? Carpet? Seats? Is the sheetmetal magically a stiffer grade when it is outfit with an N55?

Ive not been all that thrilled by the driving character of the 300 models that I have driven. Tons of power makes anything better. Maybe it is a good competitor for a 7/S in your mind, that's fine. Its not what I'd be shopping for in that segment, and again, IMO, its apples and oranges between a low and high grade 300 vs a low and high grade 3er. And, as I also said, the late model 3er may well be getting too big/bulky/soft for its own good. However, that may not be as big an issue for most in the big luxury sedan segment...

 

[SteveSRT8]

Typical German bias IMO. A lot of snobbery there, I used to be a believer, too.

The premise that you are holding out is the same as me saying I drove a 318 and thought it stunk, so therefore the 335 also stinks. After all, the only difference is a souped up engine with more power, right? Grossly oversimplified in the extreme. Do you acknowledge any differences in an M3? Or is it just a high revving V8 engine?

One should be careful making generalizations based on zero experience. Ever driven a 300C SRT8? Or even a 300C with the 5.7 engine? I already know the answer. And I suppose all the people who have bought any model 300 are somehow ignorant and misinformed? Really, amazingly off the mark and surprisingly closed-minded.

As Critic stated, to each his own.

 

[JHZR2]

German bias? youre talking about a 318 which I own and a 335, which I more or less own because the 1er is based upon the older 3er platform with an N55. Sorry that I wasnt thrilled with the 300C, that's not meant to be offensive, just IMO, which I clearly put in as a qualifier.

And as I said, power makes lots of things better - nowhere do I say that an SRT8 would be a bad driving and performing car.

But I sure would love to know what frame/chassis/unibody/materials parts change between the 300C and the SRT8, or the 318 and the 335i (IIRC the M3 does have some custom body panels and maybe even some CF stuff) that makes it such a far shot from wheels/tires/suspension/engine changes, since apparently there is such a vast change to the fundamental structure and manufacture of the vehicle. Even if there is none, its not a gig on my part, Im OK with it. Youre the one who is implying that there is such a fundamental difference between two vehicles (the 318 and 335i in your case) besides suspension, wheels/tires, brakes and engine.

Again the only reason I mention the 318 vs 35 thing is because I own both. And as critic said, to each their own. I specifically stated why I prefer my 318i over even a new 335i which I could go out and buy tonight if I desired. Bias? LOL. Im sure the v6 300C with big wheels as you put it would outperform my 318i in every criteria out there. I didnt like the 300C (non SRT8) in driving it. That's bias? I suppose if I didnt care to drive one of your cargo vans daily it too would be a bias. Get over it.

 

[surfstar]

Originally Posted By: TrevorS
Does anyone have any opinion on the AWD options from BMW, Infiniti, Jaguar?

Those who test drive the A7 say the Quattro helps, so I'm wondering whether to consider these in my short list when I go for test drives.

I love it. The above on page 3 was the OP's last post on this thread. It went right on by everyone (except a couple who briefly touched on it, then debated Audi and Acura AWD) who have continued to discuss many things that the OP couldn't care less about.
Thread drift, anyone?

 

[d00df00d]

If I had kids and enough money, I'd go for the Tesla Model S without even blinking. It lags behind the Germans in a few areas (mainly overall refinement and feel), but nowhere near enough to make up for its staggering practical advantages (complete elimination of certain maintenance items, HUGE cargo volume, ability to carry 5 full-grown adults PLUS two kids, etc.).

Without the need to haul kids around, I wouldn't be looking at any car of this size, even as a long-distance cruiser. I just don't see the point of constantly hauling around all that mass and having such a (relatively) muted driving experience when I'm the only one in the car most of the time. The biggest car I'd go for would probably be an E90 M3 sedan (CPO with a 6-speed manual).

Either way, as far as my checkbook is concerned, all competition to the Tesla Model S is irrelevant.

 

[Spazdog]

Funny how the anti-300 faction seems to prefer German cars

First thing I noticed when I took the knee bolster off of a 300 was the sticker on the column: Made In Germany
W220 Mercedes Benz front end, W210 Mercedes Benz rear suspension....

Sounds pretty German to me.

Of course the first generation of them did have a cheap poly-propylene dashboard. Usually in the most unimaginative neutral grey color ever. Sorry fellow Chrysler defenders. It's a cheap dash. I think every Chrysler had it at that time. My PT does. Rams do.

 

[Y_K]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Funny how the anti-300 faction seems to prefer German cars


It is funny indeed. it is the most German-like NA car. While new, of course. To me it resembles an E-Series MB in a good sense.

 

[MCompact]

I definitely prefer European(primarily German) cars but have nothing bad to say about the 300 other than that I prefer the styling of the Charger. I'll also note that I consider my Wrangler to be a German car, as it was produced during the Daimler-Chrysler era. Still, I have worked to increase it's German content by adding Bilstein HDs, Hella 7" E-Codes with Osram Night Breaker Plus H4 bulbs, and MB Quart speakers...

 

[SatinSilver]

Sounds like the anti-300 people need to go up a few sizes in underwear. That's why they're so uptight all the time.