Larger Luxury Sedans

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Funny how the anti-300 faction seems to prefer German cars

First thing I noticed when I took the knee bolster off of a 300 was the sticker on the column: Made In Germany
W220 Mercedes Benz front end, W210 Mercedes Benz rear suspension....

Sounds pretty German to me.

Of course the first generation of them did have a cheap poly-propylene dashboard. Usually in the most unimaginative neutral grey color ever. Sorry fellow Chrysler defenders. It's a cheap dash. I think every Chrysler had it at that time. My PT does. Rams do.


I'm not anti-300, its just not my cup of tea. Massive difference. I wish they still made the w211 because I prefer it's body style to the latest E. a w211 CDI is on my short list of cars to own.

Quite similar to the 300... How can I dislike one and like the other?

But driving rental 300s that are lower end just isn't my cup of tea. If there was a diesel or an MT version, I might consider more. In the Chrysler corporation range, I like the charger more, maybe that would change with extended test drives of the charger/Cherokee/300c all in srt8 form. None of that means that Steve's initial premise on the value and performance of a 300C srt-8 is wrong, it is an awesome car. But if I was driving many hours every day, id imagine that there is an optin that is slightly more complaint and slightly more economical. Maybe I'm wrong.

People are allowed to like certain cars and not care for others.

The w126 300SDL was about tops in my book.

 

[01rangerxl]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Typical German bias IMO. A lot of snobbery there, I used to be a believer, too.


The OP wants a nice car, not some hood donk!

 

[ls1mike]

Eh, I don't have time to read the whole thing...I just want to watch it...
It is plenty big.
Check mate.

Just feeling froggy.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Funny how the anti-300 faction seems to prefer German cars

First thing I noticed when I took the knee bolster off of a 300 was the sticker on the column: Made In Germany
W220 Mercedes Benz front end, W210 Mercedes Benz rear suspension....

Sounds pretty German to me.

Of course the first generation of them did have a cheap poly-propylene dashboard. Usually in the most unimaginative neutral grey color ever. Sorry fellow Chrysler defenders. It's a cheap dash. I think every Chrysler had it at that time. My PT does. Rams do.


I couldn't care less about the 300, its just an E class with a different body on it. Well the old one was, no idea what Fiat is doing with the new one. My buddy rented a 2012 awhile back with a V6 and it was OK for what it was. I thought it was kind of cheap, and underpowered and the transmission hunted to be honest. He didn't rush out and trade in his E class...lets put it that way. For $30k-$40k it was OK, but if you can spend more you'll get more...

Why is this turning into a 300C thread?

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
BMW doesn't do over $100k cars well, its not their specialty.

Gotta agree here. Even when BMW was still setting the standards for just about every market they competed in, their most expensive cars never seemed to get it done.

I still love the E38 7-Series, but I don't know of any 7-Series that was ever preferable to its Mercedes counterpart.


Anyway back to good cars:

The E38 was amazing.

What kills BMW is they don't offer what does AMG, and the customization options that Mercedes excels in. Also their V12 offering is...well weak. For example the 6 series is a good car, but it should compete against the CL...but it doesn't The CL competes against the GT.

Driving both you can tell BMW puts a ton of effort and money into the 1's, 3's and 5's but the 7 is kind of an afterthought. OTOH Mercedes tells you and than does put all their effort into the S class, while everything else is a trickle down.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
I couldn't care less about the 300, its just an E class with a different body on it. Well the old one was, no idea what Fiat is doing with the new one.

From what I've heard, the Fiat one is MUCH better than the Mercedes one, for what that's worth -- in other words, the Fiat one actually makes a case for being a budget luxury car, whereas the Mercedes one... didn't.


Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Why is this turning into a 300C thread?

Because a lot of people legitimately don't see why it shouldn't be in the running and think it's wrong to exclude it. And because others legitimately think that's not true.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Driving both you can tell BMW puts a ton of effort and money into the 1's, 3's and 5's but the 7 is kind of an afterthought. OTOH Mercedes tells you and than does put all their effort into the S class, while everything else is a trickle down.

Well said IMO.

 

[97tbird]

^ +1
I can see the truth in that also, HOWEVER, I think BMW is becoming more and more like MB since 2006 or so..
- in a few gen's, what Hatteresguy said might be reversed...

 

[d00df00d]

I don't think they're swapping places so much as converging. BMW seems like it's trying to play Mercedes's game...

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
But driving rental 300s that are lower end just isn't my cup of tea.


Not having driven an SRT 300, I have to believe those owners when they say that the performance of the SRT version is totally different (and obviously improved) over the regular versions. I've rented both generations of 300. The previous generation I rented had a 2.7L V-6, and the current generation I rented had the Pentastar.

Personally, I preferred the previous generation's driving dynamics...it felt a bit smaller and a bit lighter, even if it wasn't (I don't know if it was indeed lighter or not). Performance out of the 2.7L was fine, and the 5-speed transmission felt well-matched to the engine. I really didn't care for the 2012 300 I rented. Objectively, the interior quality was pretty good; certainly better than the previous generation. But the drive was pretty poor. It was loose and flabby over bumps and was a pure porpoise in corners. It would stick in a corner okay, but body roll was high and it felt floaty (moreso than either of our SUVs). The Pentastar engine was good, and the car was nice in a straight line. I simply didn't care for it.

I'd like to try an SRT8 version one of these days... The 300 seems to be one of those cars where the "performance version" is a completely different vehicle.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
But driving rental 300s that are lower end just isn't my cup of tea.


Not having driven an SRT 300, I have to believe those owners when they say that the performance of the SRT version is totally different (and obviously improved) over the regular versions. I've rented both generations of 300. The previous generation I rented had a 2.7L V-6, and the current generation I rented had the Pentastar.

Personally, I preferred the previous generation's driving dynamics...it felt a bit smaller and a bit lighter, even if it wasn't (I don't know if it was indeed lighter or not).

Performance out of the 2.7L was fine, and the 5-speed transmission felt well-matched to the engine. I really didn't care for the 2012 300 I rented. Objectively, the interior quality was pretty good; certainly better than the previous generation. But the drive was pretty poor. It was loose and flabby over bumps and was a pure porpoise in corners. It would stick in a corner okay, but body roll was high and it felt floaty (moreso than either of our SUVs). The Pentastar engine was good, and the car was nice in a straight line. I simply didn't care for it.

I'd like to try an SRT8 version one of these days... The 300 seems to be one of those cars where the "performance version" is a completely different vehicle.


Indeed. Either you are mistaken about the engine or the trans. If you got a V6 with a 5 speed it was a 3.5, the 2.7 had a 4 speed slushbox.

One of the principal reasons I do not own a new SRT8 (all 3 are very similar dynamically) is the addition of several hundred pounds of road hugging weight. The car was plenty heavy as it was, certainly didn't need to pork it up to where it is as bloated and overweight as the large German sedans and others are today! Few here know that the original 300 was the first use of hydroformed steel in a passenger car in the US back in 05, it also has torsional rigidity that beats a 911 body. This ain't your Daddy's Chrysler!

My good friend's E350 is NOTHING like a client's E430 of the same vintage, they are not even comparable. Suspension, brakes, engine, programming, almost everything is very different. If you were blindfolded you may not even think you were in the same car, and you're not supposed to. Comparing base stripper models to high end models is a ludicrous illustration at best. Just like the idiotic comment earlier about "real cars". The 300's are real, and some folks actually prefer the spartan interior without all the baloney and gimmicks that the new ones feature.

I would like to apologize for defending my car, I am indeed passionate about it as it remains one of the best cars I have ever owned in over 40 years of both domestic and import purchases, INCLUDING mercedes, porsche and bmw models.

 

[JethroBodine]

Mercedes S500 or Lexus GSF 350 sport

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

I would like to apologize for defending my car, I am indeed passionate about it as it remains one of the best cars I have ever owned in over 40 years of both domestic and import purchases, INCLUDING mercedes, porsche and bmw models.


I dont see any need to defend your car. Its a great machine, with a ton of capability.

But I do find it laughable to think that there is such a massive change in the fundamentals of a vehicle that a lower end model, albeit less capable, is somehow a complete other vehicle. I assume that if your SRT8 which has stiffness better than a 911, was in its normal 300C form, it would only have stiffness of 50% of a 911, right? Surely most of the sheetmetal and design of the unibody structure which is critical to ride, compliance, safety, handling, etc. differs, right? Brakes/suspension/engine, maybe even trans or trans tuning that are swapped in from model to model does not have much to do with it, right? Of course it will ride and drive differently then, to a point. But that's not to say that the fundamental structure of the vehicle has zero to do with it, and that the fundamental structure does not influence what you can do/get out of a vehicle when the other things are laid onto it. That's my only gripe.

For a large car (not sure how the internal volume of a 300C compares to a 7/S/460/A8/etc., but it does classify as a large car) the 300C is a screaming deal. THe SRT8 gives it a lot of awesome capability. Nothing to defend. Does not mean that it would be on everyone's shopping list if shopping in the $50+ or $80+ or whatever category, and that's OK - no need to defend a car just because of that.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Without spending hours on research I can only point to my one area of expertise...GM trucks.

Our 3500 one ton vans are the heaviest GVWR you can get without dual tires on the rear end. Virtually EVERYTHING about them is different from an ordinary van, even the 2500 series heavy duty models that are technically one ton trucks. Even the thickness of the frame rails. At least in these trucks there are significant differences in many many areas that affect the vehicle in a dozen different ways. I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes a car drive and perform if you refuse to acknowledge that different suspension, bushings, body mounts, transmission, tuning, etc. (many more variables are tweaked) do not change a vehicles behavior dramatically.

Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree. The same facts I alluded to regarding the 3 series BMW are applicable to many different cars, I just don't care to argue it any further.

No hard feelings, just tired...

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Indeed. Either you are mistaken about the engine or the trans. If you got a V6 with a 5 speed it was a 3.5, the 2.7 had a 4 speed slushbox.


I must be mistaken about the transmission. It was certainly a 2.7L; it must have been a 4A instead of a 5A. Even the 2.7L would lay some scratch around a corner in that 300 I rented. Not much of a scratch, but some! The only thing I didn't care for was the cruise control stalk that was straight Mercedes. Otherwise, it was a very solid car. I liked it quite a bit.

In many ways, I feel the new 300 is a step backwards. You may feel the same, I don't know. Would still love to try an SRT8 of either generation.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Indeed. Either you are mistaken about the engine or the trans. If you got a V6 with a 5 speed it was a 3.5, the 2.7 had a 4 speed slushbox.


I must be mistaken about the transmission. It was certainly a 2.7L; it must have been a 4A instead of a 5A. Even the 2.7L would lay some scratch around a corner in that 300 I rented. Not much of a scratch, but some! The only thing I didn't care for was the cruise control stalk that was straight Mercedes. Otherwise, it was a very solid car. I liked it quite a bit.

In many ways, I feel the new 300 is a step backwards. You may feel the same, I don't know. Would still love to try an SRT8 of either generation.


We rented a Magnum 2.7 for several weeks once and were impressed by its solidity of structure even in a base model. That is what started my search for my car.

I do not like the new gen 300. The edgy styling is gone and everything is all smooth and such. The drivetrain is greatly improved with the Pstar V6 and the new 5.7 and 6.4 motors with VVT/MDS, the interior even more dramatically redone. But they are heavier and muted compared to mine. Took away the 'edge' and made them mainstream.

My wife and I agree we will keep ours as long as we want to. It is a great choice for us and remains our 'go to' car whenever we travel.

Selling like crazy though. The market never lies...

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes a car drive and perform if you refuse to acknowledge that different suspension, bushings, body mounts, transmission, tuning, etc. (many more variables are tweaked) do not change a vehicles behavior dramatically.



Dont worry about responding. But others might want to.

You said that all those things do not change the vehicle's behavior dramatically...

My point is that the fundamental structure of a vehicle, its stiffness designs, chassis, unibody, etc. has much to do with it, and the rest is effectively bolt on and interchangable. Does not mean that substantially more power, better rubber, bigger brakes, etc makes no difference - it does change the nature of the vehicle. But you seem to be implying that between model to model, whatever you want, for example:

318 to 335i
E300D to E430
300C to SRT8

That there is a fundamental difference in the vehicle BESIDES what is bolted on, e.g. the engine/brakes/suspension.

I disagree. There arent two parallel manufacturing lines for most vehicles, even ones that have a really hot model. And, change the suspension components/tires/brakes on, say, a 318i to those of a 335i and it will handle similarly. We're doing that on our 135i cars with M3 parts.

But maybe were saying the same thing and have wires crossed?

Anyway, not trying to keep picking an argument, but perhaps someone else wants to read and respond.

 

[SatinSilver]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Our 3500 one ton vans are the heaviest GVWR you can get without dual tires on the rear end. Virtually EVERYTHING about them is different from an ordinary van, even the 2500 series heavy duty models that are technically one ton trucks. Even the thickness of the frame rails. At least in these trucks there are significant differences in many many areas that affect the vehicle in a dozen different ways.


Does the 2500 have a fully boxed frame on it? I thought the 2500 was pretty heavy duty compared to the the base van. What are you hauling around in a 3500? In high school I worked for Stanley Steemer and they had a fleet of Ford vans. Some of those vans were really old but they still ran well. Each one was washed every day if it went out no matter what the weather. Since they were stored indoors. But we didn't have to dry them.

 

[d00df00d]

For what it's worth:

Back in 2006, I went to a BMW dealership and drove an E90 325i and an E90 330i. Both cars had 6-speed manuals and the sport package. Absolutely identical cars except for their engines and a few minor options. The 325i felt like a complete waste of time. The 330i felt absolutely brilliant.

While both cars offered the same excellent handling dynamics and braking, they also both had the same high steering effort, firm ride, and utterly humorless interior. The more powerful engine seemed to put me in the mood of thinking of the car as a sporty, so the "flaws" made sense and I could focus on what the car did well. The less powerful engine... didn't do any of that.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
The market never lies...

Correct. But you have to admit it doesn't answer all questions forthrightly.