Just put a pint of MMO in the crankcase of the 528

[Shannow]

My thoughts,
* oil wedge/separation distances are related to viscosity (same speed, load, and bearing), so MMO will reduce the separation distances. (Enough to be a problem in a 20W-50 in winter, probably not).
* FM/AW additive levels will be reduced proportionally. Something that is 1000PPM becomes 900ppm with a 10% MMO brew. (Enough to be an issue in a 20W-50 which already has way more additive than any 30 can legally, probably not).
* Other additives, TBN similar to the above already noted, less additive over more oilvolume.
* Chlorinated hydrocarbons have their own advantages in boundary lubrication, and disadvantage other respects.


This case, a 20W-50 in winter, if it feels good do it...I'd have serious thought of thinning/diluting some of the thinner oils.

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: Clevy

Lubricity.

Lubricity of a material cannot be directly measured, so tests are performed to quantify a lubricant's performance. This is done by determining how much wear is caused to a surface by a given friction-inducing object in a given amount of time. Other factors such as surface size, temperature, and pressure are also specified. The greater the wear scar the worse the lubricity. For this reason lubricity is also termed a substance's anti-wear property.
Examples of test setups include "Ball-on-cylinder" and "Ball-on-three-discs" tests.

I got this from Wikipedia.
So once we consider that yes tbn is reduced but wear metals are either unaffected or improve I guess we can infer that lubricity is INCREASED or at worst unaffected if this definition is to be accepted.

So Donald please explain how the lubricity of the lubrication system is somehow hindered or reduced.





No. You make too many false assumptions to even try and address your point. Lubricity and engine wear are not directly cause/effect items. Oils have many properties for engine protection, not just one.

 

[demarpaint]

We have one test where they mixed MMO with diesel fuel and it reduced the diesel fuel's lubricity. OK great, how many of us are adding MMO and diesel fuel to our sumps? How about an independent lab tests MMO and engine oil used according to the directions? Then we'll have a valid test and something to talk about. If the UOA reports showing it did well, even one where a 20 grade oil stayed in grade under some pretty hard use doesn't mean anything, this test means even less. This is just another attempt at knocking down a good product that's all. Yawn.


https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1462001/

 

[kschachn]

I'm not Donald but I can tell you one way that the lubricity of the system was hindered or reduced - by using 20W-50 oil at 9 degrees Fahrenheit.

Originally Posted By: Clevy
So Donald please explain how the lubricity of the lubrication system is somehow hindered or reduced.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
Oils have many properties for engine protection, not just one.


As does MMO by the way, it is very high in Phosphorus IIRC. Might be why "wear" numbers actually improve in some UOA's with it.

 

[nleksan]

Just to get back on track a bit...

I am guessing that I have probably more experience with the M52tu motor than anyone else on the board, having torn down, put back togethermany times, and running a full top to bottom built M52tuB28 in my 328Ci...
That said, the only thing that you should be doing is draining your sump and putting in a top notch Grp4 or 5 oil, in the 0-5w30-40 range. Redline, and Royal Purple (either the older regular formula, or the newer HPS), are the best oils I've seen f or wear reduction on these engines. You can save money and get a good oil like M1 0w40 or whatever you want, I just have seen the benefits of the other two compared to a number of other oils, and while anecdotal, I have yet to see any wear indicators on my high compression, significantly boosted (Lysholm Twin-Screw, so that 16.5psi+ is constant, not just at a small section of the total Rev range), and heavily advanced (essentially Stage 4 cams, but a custom grind from billet by catcams) motor. If it can prevent wear for me, I don't have a moments doubt that a stock motor will benefit strongly.

I guess my point is:

Don't use an oil that's dramatically too heavy and then add a significant amount of ANY additive to make it turn over easier, but instead simply use the proper weight from the get go.
FWIW, I don't run anything that heavy even during 8hr+ track days or races, so I can't imagine using it during the middle of winter in a DD!

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: nleksan
Don't use an oil that's dramatically too heavy and then add a significant amount of ANY additive to make it turn over easier, but instead simply use the proper weight from the get go.
FWIW, I don't run anything that heavy even during 8hr+ track days or races, so I can't imagine using it during the middle of winter in a DD!


Its too cold to do an oil change right now. He's in a bind and thinning with an additive that's been around for 100 years. I think its a heads up move considering the circumstances. He probably should change to a 0w-30 year around.

I seriously don't know if anything higher that 30W would be needed for any application other than marine or heavy or mountain towing here in the U.S. Even track days are limited to 20 minute sessions which makes it hard to overheat oil. Maybe on a track like Mosport with the long straight.

BMW recommends the heavy oils because they think people are going to take the car on the Autobahn and run 5000rpm for a couple of hours. Ain't going to happen here.

 

[GaleHawkins]

I cut the 20W-50 in a generator with a pint of MMO a few weeks ago. It is still thick when cold but did thin it some. Wanted to run it before I change the oil anyway. Never used MMO (Marvel Mystery Oil) until recently but is sounds safe if used as labeled.

Seems to have a SAE weight of 3W per first post.

 

[fdcg27]

Why would you be using a 20W-50 to begin with?
This grade was designed as a bandaid for a specific shared sump application that was then adopted by the Germans as though it were a miracle oil.
My BMW's OM also recommends 20W-50 for very warm temps, but certainly not for winter.
This recommendation preceeded BMW's own oil standards and may have been based upon the wish to avoid having the oil shear to too low a viscosity when it was run to the rather long OCIs the MM allowed.
Today, you could just run a quality 10W-40 conventional year round and not have to resort to MMO to thin the oil during cold snaps.
Your use of MMO in this case may have been expedient, but there's a warm weekend on the way followed by plenty more of winter.
Change to Maxlife 10W-40 Saturday and you then won't have to worry about whether or not your cars will start when it gets cold.

 

[steve20]

there's Donald, playing the 'lubricity card' again

 

[KCJeep]

Anybody else notice the OP hasn't posted since page 1?

 

[SatinSilver]

Not till you mentioned it.

 

[andyd]

Sorry, I mostly hang out on the general and OT page. I had forgotten about this thread. Yah , If you are OCD about oil and OCIs than what I did was dumb. What I did is using the MMO at 1/2 the strength allowed on the bottle. I know a guy who uses 5w30 . I go with what is specced .

 

[TrevorS]

Originally Posted By: nleksan
Only a ccouple dozen were made, this was a beautiful Henna Red over a mix of Alcantara and Leather with just 38k miles). I got it, after 5 months of waiting, and the outside was flawless, the interior had not even a crease in the seats, even the underbody and engine bay were flawless.
However, when my mechanic and I opened up the motor to ensure timing was correct, there was a lot of gunk, and it wasn't sludge, in the motor. It felt a lot like what you would imagine burnt stopleak stuff to feel like, but it had that unique smell of MMO.
I called the PO and demanded to know what was put in it, because the ironically meticulously kept and insanely extensive maintenance and records show nothing to explain it.
The response was that a number of products were used to try to quiet down the lifter/valve tick. This included MMO, 3 types of Lucas stuff, and quite literally almost a dozen more. Apparently, the shop doing maintenance said that there's no way that it could be a timing issue, as the valves didn't need adjustment for another 20k miles.
Well, it turns out that after we cleaned up the whole engine, we found that the timing had been off by almost 6 degrees!

The price fortthe car was amended in consideration of this, and I hold no grudge.
I just know that if I hear a seller mention anything beyond the typical Techron/SI-1/etc, I ask for either a sample from the car and send for UOA, or make a deal about cost of a much more extensive PPI.


Thanks. This is a very useful, real world story of why most additives are not safe.

I agree that Techron / PEA is pretty much the only thing you should add to the fuel.

 

[TrevorS]

Originally Posted By: nleksan
(frankly, I have gotten rid of sludge faster using RL, an ester base, than with MMO mixed with a Group 3/Group 4 mix like M1 0w40 in as high a concentration as 20 percent)


Again thanks for the real world story here.

I agree with this assessment that oils formulated with esters are the way to go for cleaning. Several true oil experts have said the same thing.

If the oil meets industry standards and is more effective, why go against the manufacturer advice and use oil additives?

G Oil is also ester based and some say it has more esters than Redline.

 

[Mystic]

Originally Posted By: TrevorS
Originally Posted By: nleksan
Only a ccouple dozen were made, this was a beautiful Henna Red over a mix of Alcantara and Leather with just 38k miles). I got it, after 5 months of waiting, and the outside was flawless, the interior had not even a crease in the seats, even the underbody and engine bay were flawless.
However, when my mechanic and I opened up the motor to ensure timing was correct, there was a lot of gunk, and it wasn't sludge, in the motor. It felt a lot like what you would imagine burnt stopleak stuff to feel like, but it had that unique smell of MMO.
I called the PO and demanded to know what was put in it, because the ironically meticulously kept and insanely extensive maintenance and records show nothing to explain it.
The response was that a number of products were used to try to quiet down the lifter/valve tick. This included MMO, 3 types of Lucas stuff, and quite literally almost a dozen more. Apparently, the shop doing maintenance said that there's no way that it could be a timing issue, as the valves didn't need adjustment for another 20k miles.
Well, it turns out that after we cleaned up the whole engine, we found that the timing had been off by almost 6 degrees!

The price fortthe car was amended in consideration of this, and I hold no grudge.
I just know that if I hear a seller mention anything beyond the typical Techron/SI-1/etc, I ask for either a sample from the car and send for UOA, or make a deal about cost of a much more extensive PPI.


Thanks. This is a very useful, real world story of why most additives are not safe.

I agree that Techron / PEA is pretty much the only thing you should add to the fuel.



It seems to me that it is hard to evaluate what MMO or any other product may have done in the engine because in addition to MMO there were apparently 3 types of Lucas products and a dozen more products used to try to quiet the lifter/valve tick. Since so many products were used how can we determine which product caused problems in the engine? Only one product at a time should have been used and of course the engine should have been checked for any mechanical issues. If it had been checked it probably would have been discovered that the timing was off by 6 degrees.

Lots of guys here have had luck getting an engine cleaned using either MMO or Kreen. I have not heard very many negative comments about MMO and Kreen. But those two products are intended for cleaning of a dirty engine. If the timing was off by 6 degrees no oil supplement or engine cleaner would solve the problem. The timing would have to be corrected.

So in my opinion there is no evidence here that MMO caused any problems in the engine. Because first MMO is not for correcting timing that is off by 6 degrees. And second with so many products being used to try to correct the problem how is a person supposed to be able to determine which of those products caused the gunk to form in the engine?

 

[nleksan]

I was not saying that the MMO or anything else added caused timing issues, but that the timing issues resulted I significant lifter tick, which is what the PO was trying to address.

The MMO was what was used most often/frequently, and was used the most recently prior to selling it to me; it was the only thing run in the crank AND gasoline. That, coupled with the unmistakable smell of MMO being present in the gunk everywhere in the head (and that gunk being the same consistency throughout), suggests to me that there was some reaction between MMO and a prior additive, between MMO and the oil/gas, or it is not always safe for long term use.

AGAIN, I am just sharing an anecdote. I use various additives that seem to me to work, and I avoid the vast majority. While I personally think that MMO is one of the products which here on BITOG gets way too much praise with almost no objective data to support its use, I admit that I keep a few jugs of it around because there are times (always in small engines, 2-stroke, or older/American engines) that it seems to make it run just a bit better.
Coincidentally, I have had great results using Seafoam in some known sludge-fest engines, especially the Toyota 5SFE, in combination with RP or PU/PP oil. It also cleaned the throttle body plate/housing, PCV system, and intake manifold. Yet, many people here don't like it.

Seeing as there's very little hard science in any of this, in fact it's mostly psychology (when we expect to see or feel a difference, especially if we are invested in the outcome, we see a difference whether it's there or not), I think we can agree that MOST OF THE TIME, there is LITTLE TO NO BENEFIT from anything outside the best possible oil combined with the best possible gasoline...

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: nleksan
I was not saying that the MMO or anything else added caused timing issues, but that the timing issues resulted I significant lifter tick, which is what the PO was trying to address.

The MMO was what was used most often/frequently, and was used the most recently prior to selling it to me; it was the only thing run in the crank AND gasoline. That, coupled with the unmistakable smell of MMO being present in the gunk everywhere in the head (and that gunk being the same consistency throughout), suggests to me that there was some reaction between MMO and a prior additive, between MMO and the oil/gas, or it is not always safe for long term use.

AGAIN, I am just sharing an anecdote. I use various additives that seem to me to work, and I avoid the vast majority. While I personally think that MMO is one of the products which here on BITOG gets way too much praise with almost no objective data to support its use, I admit that I keep a few jugs of it around because there are times (always in small engines, 2-stroke, or older/American engines) that it seems to make it run just a bit better.
Coincidentally, I have had great results using Seafoam in some known sludge-fest engines, especially the Toyota 5SFE, in combination with RP or PU/PP oil. It also cleaned the throttle body plate/housing, PCV system, and intake manifold. Yet, many people here don't like it.

Seeing as there's very little hard science in any of this, in fact it's mostly psychology (when we expect to see or feel a difference, especially if we are invested in the outcome, we see a difference whether it's there or not), I think we can agree that MOST OF THE TIME, there is LITTLE TO NO BENEFIT from anything outside the best possible oil combined with the best possible gasoline...


While you have an interesting story it seems to me the PO had a problem and had no idea what was causing it. Then he started tossing additives at it. Since you weren't the original owner you really have no idea what the MMO treat rate was or any other additive's treat rate was, or the frequency. All you have to go by is what you were told. I'm glad someone had the good sense to check the timing.

It is quite possible the "gunk" in the head was the MMO attacking and thinning a very heavy dose of the LOS, thinning it. Sorry the jury IMO is out on this one. One thing for sure is you'll never know.

 

[TrevorS]

It's pretty clear that additives caused a problem in this engine. If one reads the account, you will understand how young it is and how otherwise well maintained it was.

Who knows if the issue would have happened or not without the timing issue.

Who knows if a certain combination of additives were incompatible with each other or the oil.

The fact is that additives were assumed to be able to fix a noise which should have gone to the dealer for a proper inspection and these additives proved themselves, as every manufacturer warns, to be incompatible and they caused harm.

Remember, every manufacturer warns that additives *may* cause harm and void warranties. And in this case they did.

Just goes to show one should think with ones head and not be swayed by additive maker and user claims.

 

[Mystic]

I agree demarpaint. If I was having problems with a new car that was still under warranty I would take it to the dealership to be repaired. And if this new vehicle had been taken to the dealership probably the timing issue would have been discovered in the auto maintenance department and corrected.

We have no idea what the original owner of the vehicle put into the oil and perhaps the gas of this vehicle. If the original owner did in fact put several different additives in the oil to correct the lifter/valve tick that is never a good idea. If a person has a new vehicle that is still under warranty and having problems take the vehicle to the dealership.

As far as MMO is concerned (and for that matter Kreen) I have read story after story at this website of guys having success with it for cleaning engines. The positive stories seem to greatly outnumber the negative stories. And of course MMO and Kreen are intended for cleaning dirty engines and not correcting timing problems.

With so many different additives apparently dumped into the oil there is no way to determine what might have caused the 'gunk' to form. Various additives might have had reactions to each other. Blaming MMO for the 'gunk' is silly. That would be like somebody putting five quarts of five different motor oils into an engine (say Mobil 1, Pennzoil Ultra, Valvoline, Quaker State, and Motocraft) and if something went wrong blaming the Quaker State oil. Or if the engine ran great praising the Motorcraft motor oil. Oil additives should be used for the proper reasons and typically only one additive at a time should be used. If many products are used at the same time which product can be blamed if there are problems? There is no way to determine.